Ferrari International Assistance alive & well
Discussion
Mr Pointy said:
Derek Smith said:
While I'd love to see the management call their bluff, I don't think it would be a good thing for spectators and the sport.
I'm not so sure & the upcoming new regulations & Concorde agreement were the perfect time to put Ferrari on the same terms as everyone else. For all the good Liberty have done, to allow Ferrari to retain any veto rights & to continue to bung them millions of dollars makes me deeply disappointed with Chase Carey.Would there be an effect if Ferrari left F1? Yes of course there would, but the sport would survive. No-one is indispensible, as even Bernie discovered.
Win win would be Ferrari stay in but on same terms as all the other teams.
ChocolateFrog said:
The FIA have gone too far this time. The other teams won't let it rest so they'll have to come out and make a further statement.
A Berlusconi government has more credibility than the FIA now.
such an ambiguous statement with the fia trying to save ferraris blushes for them feels a bit creepy and incestuous, I thought we'd put the fiararri days behind us..A Berlusconi government has more credibility than the FIA now.
AJB88 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Poor example as they're for all intents and purposes an English team.
Renault maybe
Registered under a German licence, owned by a German manufacturer, Austrian CEO. Renault maybe
ChocolateFrog said:
AJB88 said:
Kraken said:
Got to hate those bloody foreigners eh?
Bet he supports Mercedes ... Renault maybe
I grew up as a Team Lotus fan, more specifically a Colin Chapman fan, with the demise of both I gravitated towards McLaren and Ron Dennis.
Who said "hate"? It certainly wasn't me.
Is it not akin to growing up in Newcastle, and supporting Newcastle United?
FeelingLucky said:
Not from me.
I've never liked 'em. Not for any particular reason other than they're not a Brit team.
As the years have gone by, my dislike has grown due to their actions and behavior.
I think right about now, I've never disliked them more, their straight line speed on occasion last year was astonishing, almost comical. They seemed boastful of their recent "developments", practically inviting scrutiny. As soon as the "clarifications" started being issued, it all went away, unsurprisingly. With no actual proof that they were cheating, they clearly were.
And now to be allowed to get away with it cheapens the sport, again.
Would F1 really be worse off without Ferrari? I'm not so sure.
I've never liked 'em. Not for any particular reason other than they're not a Brit team.
As the years have gone by, my dislike has grown due to their actions and behavior.
I think right about now, I've never disliked them more, their straight line speed on occasion last year was astonishing, almost comical. They seemed boastful of their recent "developments", practically inviting scrutiny. As soon as the "clarifications" started being issued, it all went away, unsurprisingly. With no actual proof that they were cheating, they clearly were.
And now to be allowed to get away with it cheapens the sport, again.
Would F1 really be worse off without Ferrari? I'm not so sure.
Duns said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Simple cars, simple systems and simple rules. Problem fixed.
If only. 
Edited by Duns on Sunday 1st March 05:26
If lmp1 are lapping 5 seconds faster kind of loses its prestige. Plus will it still feel like the winner is the best in the world?
As for this seems like usual corruption when it comes to Ferrari. Haven’t they used the word settlement? That suggests to me pay a fine or some other get out and they sweep it u der the rug.
The fuel flow sensor 'settlement' is an interesting, and multi-faceted thing. On the face of it, it reads as if the FIA have let Ferrari off, in exchange for information about how Ferrari had circumvented the 'idea' behind the regulation, and researching various bits and pieces. The fact that performance dipped as a result, but they were not fined or banned, speaks volumes, but not for the reasons everyone thinks.
I believe, it stemmed from having it explained to the FIA tech bods that if you were clever enough, you could build a fuel system that could operate as 'intended by the team' while satisfying the fuel flow at the point of measuring. Now here's the bit that hasn't been publicly explained...
The FIA had realised that to publish the findings of Ferrari's fuel system, would open up a can of worms - it wasn't judged to be illegal, but it also wasn't police-able, and if you allow it as 'freeware' for the other teams, they'll only copy it. At that point, every car on the grid, legally complies with the regulation but makes use of a loop hole that makes the actual fuel flow sensor readings null and void, making the whole point of a fuel flow limit somewhat pointless because the FIA cannot rely on the sensor data.
The Mercedes DAS system, worked up in conversation with the FIA, is an example of where the governing body elected to allow something, only to then realise that when rival teams sought clarification, it needed to be looked at, and subsequently they decided to ban it for 2021 onwards. I guess they didn't want to ruin all Merc's hard development work. Mercedes will feel lucky, the other teams will feel handicapped - it's just how the FIA cookie crumbles. But it's a 2-way street, and surely innovation from all teams should face equal levels of critique.
It comes back to the general consensus in the media (and as a result, the public) being something like:
Ferrari innovation - "must be illegal, they must be cheating".
Mercedes innovation - "genius, they're smarter than all the others".
Ferrari appear to have outsmarted the FIA's technical community, and upon investigation, done a 'Penn & Teller' explanation, because they had no choice, and the FIA then realised that had other teams had the same thought process, Honda, Renault or Mercedes could all run a similar system that made however many fuel flow sensors on the car, completely pointless. It's possibly left the FIA a bit embarrassed and they don't have a quick fix to ensure compliance. I'd expect a better, more intrusive set of sensors to be introduced as soon as the governing body can fathom how to do it.
Unfortunately, it's Ferrari, who are often deemed a bunch of dis-organised clowns by the media and viewers, so there's a level of disbelief that they could have developed something better than Mercedes.
I believe, it stemmed from having it explained to the FIA tech bods that if you were clever enough, you could build a fuel system that could operate as 'intended by the team' while satisfying the fuel flow at the point of measuring. Now here's the bit that hasn't been publicly explained...
The FIA had realised that to publish the findings of Ferrari's fuel system, would open up a can of worms - it wasn't judged to be illegal, but it also wasn't police-able, and if you allow it as 'freeware' for the other teams, they'll only copy it. At that point, every car on the grid, legally complies with the regulation but makes use of a loop hole that makes the actual fuel flow sensor readings null and void, making the whole point of a fuel flow limit somewhat pointless because the FIA cannot rely on the sensor data.
The Mercedes DAS system, worked up in conversation with the FIA, is an example of where the governing body elected to allow something, only to then realise that when rival teams sought clarification, it needed to be looked at, and subsequently they decided to ban it for 2021 onwards. I guess they didn't want to ruin all Merc's hard development work. Mercedes will feel lucky, the other teams will feel handicapped - it's just how the FIA cookie crumbles. But it's a 2-way street, and surely innovation from all teams should face equal levels of critique.
It comes back to the general consensus in the media (and as a result, the public) being something like:
Ferrari innovation - "must be illegal, they must be cheating".
Mercedes innovation - "genius, they're smarter than all the others".
Ferrari appear to have outsmarted the FIA's technical community, and upon investigation, done a 'Penn & Teller' explanation, because they had no choice, and the FIA then realised that had other teams had the same thought process, Honda, Renault or Mercedes could all run a similar system that made however many fuel flow sensors on the car, completely pointless. It's possibly left the FIA a bit embarrassed and they don't have a quick fix to ensure compliance. I'd expect a better, more intrusive set of sensors to be introduced as soon as the governing body can fathom how to do it.
Unfortunately, it's Ferrari, who are often deemed a bunch of dis-organised clowns by the media and viewers, so there's a level of disbelief that they could have developed something better than Mercedes.
NFC 85 Vette said:
It comes back to the general consensus in the media (and as a result, the public) being something like:
Ferrari innovation - "must be illegal, they must be cheating".
Mercedes innovation - "genius, they're smarter than all the others".
Ferrari appear to have outsmarted the FIA's technical community, and upon investigation, done a 'Penn & Teller' explanation, because they had no choice, and the FIA then realised that had other teams had the same thought process, Honda, Renault or Mercedes could all run a similar system that made however many fuel flow sensors on the car, completely pointless. It's possibly left the FIA a bit embarrassed and they don't have a quick fix to ensure compliance. I'd expect a better, more intrusive set of sensors to be introduced as soon as the governing body can fathom how to do it.
Unfortunately, it's Ferrari, who are often deemed a bunch of dis-organised clowns by the media and viewers, so there's a level of disbelief that they could have developed something better than Mercedes. (Edited)
I don't believe the two situations are the same at all. The aim of the fuel flow regulation is very clear; it specifies a numerical limit on the fuel flow rate to define the rate of fuel injection into the engine (note I said aim). The suspicion is that a team had a system that gave the correct flow rate value data from the sensor (possibly by introducing electrical noise into the system), but was actually delivering more than this to the cylinders. Many would feel that's not compliant with the rules by any reasonable definition. If it was then it wouldn't have been investigated & then dropped by the team.Ferrari innovation - "must be illegal, they must be cheating".
Mercedes innovation - "genius, they're smarter than all the others".
Ferrari appear to have outsmarted the FIA's technical community, and upon investigation, done a 'Penn & Teller' explanation, because they had no choice, and the FIA then realised that had other teams had the same thought process, Honda, Renault or Mercedes could all run a similar system that made however many fuel flow sensors on the car, completely pointless. It's possibly left the FIA a bit embarrassed and they don't have a quick fix to ensure compliance. I'd expect a better, more intrusive set of sensors to be introduced as soon as the governing body can fathom how to do it.
Unfortunately, it's Ferrari, who are often deemed a bunch of dis-organised clowns by the media and viewers, so there's a level of disbelief that they could have developed something better than Mercedes. (Edited)
The Merc DAS system simply isn't covered in the regulations, unless another team protest it under the parc ferme rules at the race.
I would suggest one is innovation & one isn't. Almost every team has (maybe grudgingly) admitted the DAS system is a brilliant piece of engineering; not one team other than those getting the advantage of it thinks that fooling the fuel flow sensor would be anything other than cheating.
Mr Pointy said:
I don't believe the two situations are the same at all. The aim of the fuel flow regulation is very clear; it specifies a numerical limit on the fuel flow rate to define the rate of fuel injection into the engine (note I said aim). The suspicion is that a team had a system that gave the correct flow rate value data from the sensor (possibly by introducing electrical noise into the system), but was actually delivering more than this to the cylinders. Many would feel that's not compliant with the rules by any reasonable definition. If it was then it wouldn't have been investigated & then dropped by the team.
The Merc DAS system simply isn't covered in the regulations, unless another team protest it under the parc ferme rules at the race.
I would suggest one is innovation & one isn't. Almost every team has (maybe grudgingly) admitted the DAS system is a brilliant piece of engineering; not one team other than those getting the advantage of it thinks that fooling the fuel flow sensor would be anything other than cheating.
My point is that Ferrari were using a principle as Mercedes did. If it isn't written down as prohibited by the regulation, it's not illegal. The trouble comes where the FIA, and other teams, think all the avenues are blocked off, and because they haven't thought of it, it must be illegal.The Merc DAS system simply isn't covered in the regulations, unless another team protest it under the parc ferme rules at the race.
I would suggest one is innovation & one isn't. Almost every team has (maybe grudgingly) admitted the DAS system is a brilliant piece of engineering; not one team other than those getting the advantage of it thinks that fooling the fuel flow sensor would be anything other than cheating.
As a certain Mr. Walkinshaw used to say, read the regulations once to digest them, read them a second time to see what's not mentioned.
The actual regulation (for 2019, 2020 using a 2nd fuel flow sensor):
5.10 Fuel systems :
5.10.1 The pressure of the fuel supplied to the fuel injectors may not exceed 500bar. Only approved
parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may
be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.10.3 All cars must be fitted with a single fuel flow sensor, wholly within the fuel tank, which has
been manufactured by the FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.
This sensor may only be used as specified by the FIA. Furthermore, all fuel delivered to the
power unit must pass through this homologated sensor, and must all be delivered to the
combustion chambers by the fuel injectors described by Article 5.10.2.
5.10.4 Homologated sensors which directly measure the pressure and temperature of the fuel
supplied to the fuel injectors must also be fitted, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data
logger.
5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow
rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.
The last part is the area of interest, and it's likely to be where Ferrari's system was doing something outside the catch net of the regulation. Ferrari were just a bit too clever, and the only area of their car that performed well (the power unit), while not judged illegal, will now be a step or several behind Mercedes, Renault and Honda in power terms. So while they've not been punished for last season, punishment will come this year by lack of horsepower. It wasn't illegal, but was perhaps unethical, or not in the 'spirit' of the rules.
Where's the line drawn though? Stumble across a loophole in the technical regulations, exploit it to your benefit, stump those that made the regulation, and they cannot confidently tell you you've broken the regulation - on the contrary, they're asking for your assistance to understand what they've missed when they've written it.
The acid test for this is whether had the shoe been on the other foot, and Mercedes, Renault or Honda developed a way to deliver fuel flow rates outside of the regulation and the FIA declared it not to be illegal, would everyone be calling them cheaters of geniuses?
It's clear that Ferrari's horsepower advantage was reduced, but if the FIA has said that they cannot prove it was illegal, because it simply works in a way that isn't specifically prohibited, and the fuel flow sensor provides the target number, then there shouldn't really be a problem. The regulations seem pretty watertight, so whatever they were doing, involved a lot of blue sky thinking far beyond what the FIA anticipated anyone could do.
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