Nigel Mansell one of the Greats ?
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
A true "great" - probably not.
Great to watch and a great entertainer - absolutely.
The true greats make winning look easy. No one could ever accuse Mansell of that.
You could also never accuse Mansell of giving the impression that he was doing you a favour by winnning.Great to watch and a great entertainer - absolutely.
The true greats make winning look easy. No one could ever accuse Mansell of that.
He was the only driver who seemed impervious to Senna's mind games. Prost was a sucker for them but Mansell just seemed to go his merry way. I think you could be too subtle for him.
Stuismyname said:
StevieBee said:
Part of the stigma that surrounded him came from within the sport which at the time, was quite snobby. Drivers names needed to end in "i" or "a". They needed to come from wealthy stock and be glamorous.
Yes, that Nelsona Piqueti and Alaina Prosti were right toffee-nosed b
ds. Regarding the "drama queen" thing, it's been said often that this is a matter of regionality. When a Latin driver moans and creates, it's considered "passionate" and "emotional". When a saxon (British) driver does the same, it's considered "whinging".
StevieBee said:
Stuismyname said:
StevieBee said:
Part of the stigma that surrounded him came from within the sport which at the time, was quite snobby. Drivers names needed to end in "i" or "a". They needed to come from wealthy stock and be glamorous.
Yes, that Nelsona Piqueti and Alaina Prosti were right toffee-nosed bds. Regarding the "drama queen" thing, it's been said often that this is a matter of regionality. When a Latin driver moans and creates, it's considered "passionate" and "emotional". When a saxon (British) driver does the same, it's considered "whinging".
StevieBee said:
Stuismyname said:
StevieBee said:
Part of the stigma that surrounded him came from within the sport which at the time, was quite snobby. Drivers names needed to end in "i" or "a". They needed to come from wealthy stock and be glamorous.
Yes, that Nelsona Piqueti and Alaina Prosti were right toffee-nosed bds. Regarding the "drama queen" thing, it's been said often that this is a matter of regionality. When a Latin driver moans and creates, it's considered "passionate" and "emotional". When a saxon (British) driver does the same, it's considered "whinging".
Some great drives, a man of incredible determination and with HUGE cojones - but he's not in my all-time top 10.
With regard to winning the Indy title in his rookie season, I seem to remember Michael Andretti (?) saying something along the lines of, 'Of course he won, I spent the previous year getting the car perfect'. I could be wrong, however, and feel free to correct me if I am.
With regard to winning the Indy title in his rookie season, I seem to remember Michael Andretti (?) saying something along the lines of, 'Of course he won, I spent the previous year getting the car perfect'. I could be wrong, however, and feel free to correct me if I am.
HONEYMON57ER said:
Excellent stuff.He may have not been everybodies ideal person outside the cockpit, but as a racing driver moves like that must make up for it.
I met him when he was doing Touring Cars for Ford in the Mondeo and was impressed how he made time for people, especially children (even if one wearing his T-Shirt was too young to know who he was).
The clip was helped by Murray and James on form, as example of how commentators can add to (rather than detract from) coverage.
As an aside it was odd to see a driver taking his hand off the wheel to change gear.
williamp said:
Anyone remember the Toruing car race at Donington?
He was awesome IMHO.
My best memory of him was when they first opened Rockingham and he demoed an Indycar to publicise the race they had there later that year.
He did a few laps and I though 'god thats quick' then suddenly he was properly on it and was a whole world faster!
Got to shake his hand and get his autograph that day as well
hostile17 said:
With regard to winning the Indy title in his rookie season, I seem to remember Michael Andretti (?) saying something along the lines of, 'Of course he won, I spent the previous year getting the car perfect'. I could be wrong, however, and feel free to correct me if I am.
I had not heard of that quote before, but if it was said by anyone, it would have been Mario.In an interview in something like Motor Sport a couple of years ago, in response to a question Mario said that Mansell had been his all-time worst teammate.
Andretti said that he himself had had to do nearly all the testing over the two years that they were teammates at Newman Haas. Mario explained that that he himself enjoyed testing (many would say that he was one of the best ever at it), and thus didn't mind spending his own time at it, but thought that the car could have been even better if Mansell too had made a contribution.
What got Mario really pissed off, however, was when Mansell began to spout off to the press that Andretti hadn't been pulling his weight in testing and that he, poor Nige, was having to do all the heavy lifting!
In his new book Derek Daly rates him highly. I cant remember the term Daly used but basicly it was that he could take any car and get the best out of it on the day but perhaps not a great development driver.
It is suggested that the "poor me" underdog moaning was the way he motivated himself.
It is suggested that the "poor me" underdog moaning was the way he motivated himself.
flemke said:
hostile17 said:
With regard to winning the Indy title in his rookie season, I seem to remember Michael Andretti (?) saying something along the lines of, 'Of course he won, I spent the previous year getting the car perfect'. I could be wrong, however, and feel free to correct me if I am.
I had not heard of that quote before, but if it was said by anyone, it would have been Mario.In an interview in something like Motor Sport a couple of years ago, in response to a question Mario said that Mansell had been his all-time worst teammate.
Andretti said that he himself had had to do nearly all the testing over the two years that they were teammates at Newman Haas. Mario explained that that he himself enjoyed testing (many would say that he was one of the best ever at it), and thus didn't mind spending his own time at it, but thought that the car could have been even better if Mansell too had made a contribution.
What got Mario really pissed off, however, was when Mansell began to spout off to the press that Andretti hadn't been pulling his weight in testing and that he, poor Nige, was having to do all the heavy lifting!
StevieBee said:
Stuismyname said:
StevieBee said:
Part of the stigma that surrounded him came from within the sport which at the time, was quite snobby. Drivers names needed to end in "i" or "a". They needed to come from wealthy stock and be glamorous.
Yes, that Nelsona Piqueti and Alaina Prosti were right toffee-nosed bds. Regarding the "drama queen" thing, it's been said often that this is a matter of regionality. When a Latin driver moans and creates, it's considered "passionate" and "emotional". When a saxon (British) driver does the same, it's considered "whinging".
If you are (if "one is" - not you, Stevie) from a culture in which "everybody" whinges, then when you whinge you're just following the ubiquitous examples around you. You don't know any better. It's the norm and, as such, has no particular meaning or distinctiveness. Its effects will be minimal, precisely because everybody does it.
If you are from a culture in which people tend not to whinge, then when you yourself whinge you will attract a good deal of attention. Your whingeing stands out and, because of its distinctiveness, your fellow men take it seriously and pay attention.
At least, they pay attention until they realise that you're just acting like a baby.
ginettag27 said:
flemke said:
hostile17 said:
With regard to winning the Indy title in his rookie season, I seem to remember Michael Andretti (?) saying something along the lines of, 'Of course he won, I spent the previous year getting the car perfect'. I could be wrong, however, and feel free to correct me if I am.
I had not heard of that quote before, but if it was said by anyone, it would have been Mario.In an interview in something like Motor Sport a couple of years ago, in response to a question Mario said that Mansell had been his all-time worst teammate.
Andretti said that he himself had had to do nearly all the testing over the two years that they were teammates at Newman Haas. Mario explained that that he himself enjoyed testing (many would say that he was one of the best ever at it), and thus didn't mind spending his own time at it, but thought that the car could have been even better if Mansell too had made a contribution.
What got Mario really pissed off, however, was when Mansell began to spout off to the press that Andretti hadn't been pulling his weight in testing and that he, poor Nige, was having to do all the heavy lifting!
The anecdote about Mario is also correct. Nige doesn't seem to have been very popular in the Andretti household.
Fivepercent said:
Greats: Fangio, Nuvolari, Schumacher, Prost, Clark, Senna, Villeneuve
Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
NONESENSE! Mansell was as good as anyone who ever sat in a race car and considerably better than 'most' of those on your list.One of the very few that actually made it to F1 on the back of his own talent and determination rather than because he had a rich dad!Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
Mansell is my all time favourite driver but I don't think his a great, IMHO. I think he was one of those guys on the cusp, not quite the finished article.
I think behind-the-scenes he was a bit naive, should've done more development work.
He fell out with Patrick Head because Head wanted to continue developing active suspension in the Williams, and Mansell wanted to race without it.
Frank Dernie rates Piquet over Nige because of his input.
It may given him attention but I think Nigel's infamous moaning were hardly constructive, hardly great man-management skills.
For sure Nige convinced Williams for driver parity but it seemed he had to go through the motions (Piquet, Prost) to learn that its not just talent that win championships but imposing yourself within the team.
Although he was #1 driver at Ferrari in 1989 but until the 1990s I suppose you could say he lacked having a ruthless streak in him. You don't see that with Lewis Hamilton, he's right on the ball and had the balls to defy team orders at Hungary last year.
And having a balls out driving style has a price. The old adage is to finish first, first you've got to finish. The shunt that injured his back and cost him the title was an insignificant practice session in Suzuka 1987, trying to lay down the gauntlet.
I think behind-the-scenes he was a bit naive, should've done more development work.
He fell out with Patrick Head because Head wanted to continue developing active suspension in the Williams, and Mansell wanted to race without it.
Frank Dernie rates Piquet over Nige because of his input.
It may given him attention but I think Nigel's infamous moaning were hardly constructive, hardly great man-management skills.
For sure Nige convinced Williams for driver parity but it seemed he had to go through the motions (Piquet, Prost) to learn that its not just talent that win championships but imposing yourself within the team.
Although he was #1 driver at Ferrari in 1989 but until the 1990s I suppose you could say he lacked having a ruthless streak in him. You don't see that with Lewis Hamilton, he's right on the ball and had the balls to defy team orders at Hungary last year.
And having a balls out driving style has a price. The old adage is to finish first, first you've got to finish. The shunt that injured his back and cost him the title was an insignificant practice session in Suzuka 1987, trying to lay down the gauntlet.
kinetic said:
Fivepercent said:
Greats: Fangio, Nuvolari, Schumacher, Prost, Clark, Senna, Villeneuve
Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
NONESENSE! Mansell was as good as anyone who ever sat in a race car and considerably better than 'most' of those on your list.One of the very few that actually made it to F1 on the back of his own talent and determination rather than because he had a rich dad!Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
I think Mansell was one of the hardest charging drivers of all time and one of the truly great 'Racers'.
In terms of your 'others better than Mansell', none of those really stack up with the exception of Ascari and (grudgingly) Stewart. Graham Hill was a driver in the Mansell mould in that he was a very hard charger but arguably without the natural talent and killer instinct of Mansell. It strikes me that Peterson and Rindt were't unlike Mansell in terms of their character in the car but the inclusion of Hakkinen on your list is questionable at best and including Raikonen, Alonso and Kubica on your list is laughable.
In relation to Hamilton I think it's really too early to say with any conviction about how he stacks up against the greats but, arguably, the impact which he had in his debut season was equal, if not superior(by virtue of one of the best cars in the field), to that of Clark, Senna and Surtees
Fivepercent said:
Greats: Fangio, Nuvolari, Schumacher, Prost, Clark, Senna, Villeneuve
Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
I did not see Nuvolari, Ascari nor Fangio so all I'd be going by is other people's opinion. However, I've never seen Prost drive a great race. A steady, clever, intelligent one, but not one to get me on the edge of my seat and cheering.Others better than Mansell: Stewart, Hill(G), Piquet, Lauda, Rindt, Ascari, Hamilton, Alonso, Peterson, Räikkönen, Häkkinen, Kubica etc
Villeneuve and Mansell were about as alike in driving as you can get, but Mansell had the better results. Piquet, who was better than Mansell according to you, was frequently blown away by him. All the races with the two of them in that I saw live, Piquet was the inferior driver.
Lauda whinged more than Mansell but was almost 'there'.
As for Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica you've got to say that they should get some time in before any decision can be made.
Graham Hill leaves me in a bit of a quandry. He always struck me as the least naturally talented championship winner I ever saw. But then, I didn't see all that much of him so I can't really comment.
Of those that I've seen, the greats include MScheuy, Clark, Senna, Stewart, Rindt, Peterson, Raikkonen and Hakkers, with Clark being comfortably the best of the lot although possibly Peterson was the most underrated.
I would not put Mansell in amongst them in as equally great but he was much, much more exciting and worth watching than the others you've quoted. Piquet he drove against in the same car with less power and still beat him.
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