Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
Teddy Lop said:
Still waiting on you Seb afficinados to elucidate on how two x favoured drivers in a team known to focus on one, and with quite different car behaviour preferences, is going to work.
Is there a better mansplanation for the massive difference in gasleys pace inside/outside the red bull besides that they just didn't really give a s
t?
Look at any other team on the grid. Anywhere such a gap exists between the drivers it is considered a problem. Is there a better mansplanation for the massive difference in gasleys pace inside/outside the red bull besides that they just didn't really give a s
t?And I can assure you that Red Bull do give a s
t. They gave a st when Gasly finished in 8th on pure pace in Canada last year. They will have given a st when Perez very nearly went past Albon at the weekend. kiseca said:
Gasly got 61 points in 12 races in a Red Bull, while Albon managed 76 points from just 9 races. In those same 9 races, Max ultimately turned the tables with a win and a second to get 97 points. So while Albon was a consistent points scorer in the car, Max was less so, however he was ultimately more effective by getting big scoring podiums and wins - something neither Albon nor Gasly ever looked likely to do. No surprise there.
However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
This is all symptomatic of an improving Red Bull car over the season.However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
jsf said:
How many times does it have to be said. Drivers dont design the cars, it's all data driven.
And where does the data come from? The drivers and how they peddle the car!! So technically the drivers influence the design by their input in driving them. If a driver likes a particular style that shows in the data and will undoubtably influence the designer.If Albon had of managed to get past Hamilton in austria, we would probably be talking about him in a completely different context as he was going to win that race!! What Albon has achieved in the last year is quite astounding. Having had to run the rookie lights at his first test in Barcelon, because he'd NEVER driven an F1 car, to one year later being a podium and even a race contender is quite remarkable. You CAN'T compare him directly to Gasly and his opportunities or to Max and the fact that he has nearly 4-5yrs experience, let alone the fact that when he first got into F1 hes was ping-ponging all over the circuit and causing all sorts of trouble...
Finally as it's a Seb thread, he needs a holiday. He should disappear NOW and have a break and a play at a few other things, LeMans, Sportscars, FE...... or go and build some more vintage bikes. He's not doing himself any favours at the moment, in fact he's driving himself into obscurity.... and Newey won those championships, not Seb.
super7 said:
.... and Newey won those championships, not Seb.
Did he? He was obviously a massive factor in giving the team a car with winning potential, but the driver still has to do the job. The other guy with the same car only managed to finish 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd in those four years.HustleRussell said:
kiseca said:
Gasly got 61 points in 12 races in a Red Bull, while Albon managed 76 points from just 9 races. In those same 9 races, Max ultimately turned the tables with a win and a second to get 97 points. So while Albon was a consistent points scorer in the car, Max was less so, however he was ultimately more effective by getting big scoring podiums and wins - something neither Albon nor Gasly ever looked likely to do. No surprise there.
However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
This is all symptomatic of an improving Red Bull car over the season.However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
kiseca said:
HustleRussell said:
kiseca said:
Gasly got 61 points in 12 races in a Red Bull, while Albon managed 76 points from just 9 races. In those same 9 races, Max ultimately turned the tables with a win and a second to get 97 points. So while Albon was a consistent points scorer in the car, Max was less so, however he was ultimately more effective by getting big scoring podiums and wins - something neither Albon nor Gasly ever looked likely to do. No surprise there.
However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
This is all symptomatic of an improving Red Bull car over the season.However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
HustleRussell said:
kiseca said:
HustleRussell said:
kiseca said:
Gasly got 61 points in 12 races in a Red Bull, while Albon managed 76 points from just 9 races. In those same 9 races, Max ultimately turned the tables with a win and a second to get 97 points. So while Albon was a consistent points scorer in the car, Max was less so, however he was ultimately more effective by getting big scoring podiums and wins - something neither Albon nor Gasly ever looked likely to do. No surprise there.
However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
This is all symptomatic of an improving Red Bull car over the season.However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.
Yes, the car was developed through the year, but most of them are. To improve, you need to change something. In one of the Red Bull cars, the driver didn't change. That was Max. Can't split the season in half because it was 21 races, but if you compare the first ten and the last ten races, Max scored 135 in the first 10, and 115 in the last 10. The race in the middle (race 11), he won. Could equally count that towards the first half or the second, or split it down the middle and share it equally, which is the same as ignoring it because it's a common denominator (which is what I will do).
So, overall, he was slightly worse in the second half (by 20 points) but I would say close enough to account for changes in fortune rather than changes in car performance.
Can look at it another way. In the first 10, he had 3 podiums, which included 1 win. But, he scored points in every race. In the last 10 races, he had 5 podiums (also with one win included), so an improvement there, but also had his two worst finishes of the season, and on top of that both of his retirements were in the second 10.
So, where only changes to the car could have made a difference, they didn't improve as far as results are concerned.
In the other car, the results definitely did improve, but the known change was the driver, and there is a step change in the results at the point the driver changed. In the races leading up to the change, Gasly finished 15th, 15th, 12th, 6th and 10th. In the next race Albon was in the car instead, and his worst finish for the next five races equalled Gasly's best in the preceding 5: 5th, 6th, 6th, 5th and 4th.
Albon finished out of the points once in 9 races for Red Bull in 2019. Gasly, even if you cherry pick his best 9 finishes from the 12 available, still has 4 out of the points and that doesn't even include a retirment.
So, if the change in results was due to the car improving rather than the driver, then a) the change was a significant one introduced in Belgium, and b) Max suddenly became a much worse driver because despite the car getting better he managed to do worse than before.... and, that being said, Max's string of consistent points finishes in the first half is uncharacteristically good for him.
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 15th July 12:28
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 15th July 12:28
kiseca said:
and, that being said, Max's string of consistent points finishes in the first half is uncharacteristically good for him.
I'm inclined to agree with your post, except the last bit. He earned the Crashstappen reputation in the early years, but after the FP3 crash at Monaco in 2018 he had somewhat of an epiphany (helped by Ricciardo winning) and has since become very consistent.
In fact ignoring 2 mechanical failures, after Monaco 2018 he didn't finish outside the top 5 until Spa 2019.
Both Max himself and Horner have said that needlessly smashing the car up in FP3 and thus ruining his qualifying / race when he had a very good opportunity to win was a turning point in his approach, and the results since then back that up as far as I'm concerned.
SturdyHSV said:
I'm inclined to agree with your post, except the last bit.
He earned the Crashstappen reputation in the early years, but after the FP3 crash at Monaco in 2018 he had somewhat of an epiphany (helped by Ricciardo winning) and has since become very consistent.
In fact ignoring 2 mechanical failures, after Monaco 2018 he didn't finish outside the top 5 until Spa 2019.
Both Max himself and Horner have said that needlessly smashing the car up in FP3 and thus ruining his qualifying / race when he had a very good opportunity to win was a turning point in his approach, and the results since then back that up as far as I'm concerned.
OK yeah fair enough, happy to concede his rep with me is out of date.He earned the Crashstappen reputation in the early years, but after the FP3 crash at Monaco in 2018 he had somewhat of an epiphany (helped by Ricciardo winning) and has since become very consistent.
In fact ignoring 2 mechanical failures, after Monaco 2018 he didn't finish outside the top 5 until Spa 2019.
Both Max himself and Horner have said that needlessly smashing the car up in FP3 and thus ruining his qualifying / race when he had a very good opportunity to win was a turning point in his approach, and the results since then back that up as far as I'm concerned.
C&P using Google translate;
Vettel is considering Aston Martin contract offer for 2021
July 14, 2020 - Sebastian Vettel is discussing a deal to race for Aston Martin in Formula 1 in 2021, sources have indicated.
The four-time world champion has reportedly been offered a contract by team owner Lawrence Stroll, who is keen to build the strongest possible package for Aston Martin, which will be the name of today's Racing Point from 2021. German newspaper Bild, which is generally well informed about Vettel's plans, has also indicated that there may be an agreement soon.
The team already has a multi-year deal with Sergio Perez, who also brings sponsorship money, while Lawrence Stroll's son Lance's place seems certain for the long haul, too. Since Vettel became available for leaving Ferrari at the end of the season, Racing Point team boss Otmar Szafnauer has repeatedly denied that the team has a place for him.
https://www.gpupdate.net/nl/f1-nieuws/379462/vette...
Vettel is considering Aston Martin contract offer for 2021
July 14, 2020 - Sebastian Vettel is discussing a deal to race for Aston Martin in Formula 1 in 2021, sources have indicated.
The four-time world champion has reportedly been offered a contract by team owner Lawrence Stroll, who is keen to build the strongest possible package for Aston Martin, which will be the name of today's Racing Point from 2021. German newspaper Bild, which is generally well informed about Vettel's plans, has also indicated that there may be an agreement soon.
The team already has a multi-year deal with Sergio Perez, who also brings sponsorship money, while Lawrence Stroll's son Lance's place seems certain for the long haul, too. Since Vettel became available for leaving Ferrari at the end of the season, Racing Point team boss Otmar Szafnauer has repeatedly denied that the team has a place for him.
https://www.gpupdate.net/nl/f1-nieuws/379462/vette...
Fortitude said:
C&P using Google translate;
Vettel is considering Aston Martin contract offer for 2021
July 14, 2020 - Sebastian Vettel is discussing a deal to race for Aston Martin in Formula 1 in 2021, sources have indicated.
The four-time world champion has reportedly been offered a contract by team owner Lawrence Stroll, who is keen to build the strongest possible package for Aston Martin, which will be the name of today's Racing Point from 2021. German newspaper Bild, which is generally well informed about Vettel's plans, has also indicated that there may be an agreement soon.
The team already has a multi-year deal with Sergio Perez, who also brings sponsorship money, while Lawrence Stroll's son Lance's place seems certain for the long haul, too. Since Vettel became available for leaving Ferrari at the end of the season, Racing Point team boss Otmar Szafnauer has repeatedly denied that the team has a place for him.
https://www.gpupdate.net/nl/f1-nieuws/379462/vette...
Interesting - if any of it's true!Vettel is considering Aston Martin contract offer for 2021
July 14, 2020 - Sebastian Vettel is discussing a deal to race for Aston Martin in Formula 1 in 2021, sources have indicated.
The four-time world champion has reportedly been offered a contract by team owner Lawrence Stroll, who is keen to build the strongest possible package for Aston Martin, which will be the name of today's Racing Point from 2021. German newspaper Bild, which is generally well informed about Vettel's plans, has also indicated that there may be an agreement soon.
The team already has a multi-year deal with Sergio Perez, who also brings sponsorship money, while Lawrence Stroll's son Lance's place seems certain for the long haul, too. Since Vettel became available for leaving Ferrari at the end of the season, Racing Point team boss Otmar Szafnauer has repeatedly denied that the team has a place for him.
https://www.gpupdate.net/nl/f1-nieuws/379462/vette...
I said a page or so back that in many ways RP would make sense 'if' he was to return. As a team they're in the ascendancy, so Seb might like the idea of being part of that journey - even allowing for the fact they're not at a level where he could expect to fight for a title. Titles are not the whole point of F1 though. Might do him some good to have a year or so without the pressure of title expectations at a top team - and the RP cars are still more than fast enough for him to have some battles and bring home meaningful results.
Not saying I believe the rumour or that I think he'll end up at RP, but considering the options it is perhaps the team I can most imagine him going to. RB is a close second, simply because I think they would consider Seb & Max for the headlines and media buzz that would ensue.
Kraken said:
Drivers don't design the car but they have a huge role to play in the tuning and development of the car once it's a physical entity.
Their job is to maximise the tools the engineers give them, some cars have a bigger window than others for the driver to work with the race engineer to maximise the performance of that package in the window it allows. This is where one driver can shine in the team, as they can maximise the window the car allows. The design itself is based entirely on maximising the potential available under the rules, they have hundreds of engineers and hundreds of sensor outputs to do this. The rules are extremely restrictive in this regard now, even mandating the weight distribution allowed, this will be mandated to ensure the tyre design remains within its safe window.The performance is mostly Aero generated these days, the basic design characteristics of the mechanical side suspension geometry is absolutely horrible compared to a traditional non aero dominated formula car. Powertrain is next, but even that is compromised by the big aero decisions.
Whenever a team makes a big step forward, it's always because the engineers created something, the days of drivers influencing the performance of the core product are long gone. This is why plugging in a top driver like Alonso into a dog of a car McLaren made no difference, even over multiple seasons. The basic speed of the car is all about the engineering. Even this weekend with damage to his car, Verstappen couldn't really tell the difference, the engineers could see it on the data though.
The best we can hope for is that each team creates an equally good car, then we get to see some racing. You could plug Russell into the Mercedes and he would win races immediately, his feedback is never going to get Williams to the front because it's all about the cars engineering staff and the money they have to spend on development.
Last i'll say on this because it seems some people cant accept this and its boring going round in circles.
TheDeuce said:
Interesting - if any of it's true!
I said a page or so back that in many ways RP would make sense 'if' he was to return. As a team they're in the ascendancy, so Seb might like the idea of being part of that journey - even allowing for the fact they're not at a level where he could expect to fight for a title. Titles are not the whole point of F1 though. Might do him some good to have a year or so without the pressure of title expectations at a top team - and the RP cars are still more than fast enough for him to have some battles and bring home meaningful results.
Not saying I believe the rumour or that I think he'll end up at RP, but considering the options it is perhaps the team I can most imagine him going to. RB is a close second, simply because I think they would consider Seb & Max for the headlines and media buzz that would ensue.
I said a page or so back that in many ways RP would make sense 'if' he was to return. As a team they're in the ascendancy, so Seb might like the idea of being part of that journey - even allowing for the fact they're not at a level where he could expect to fight for a title. Titles are not the whole point of F1 though. Might do him some good to have a year or so without the pressure of title expectations at a top team - and the RP cars are still more than fast enough for him to have some battles and bring home meaningful results.
Not saying I believe the rumour or that I think he'll end up at RP, but considering the options it is perhaps the team I can most imagine him going to. RB is a close second, simply because I think they would consider Seb & Max for the headlines and media buzz that would ensue.
Stuart70 said:
Vettel to Aston Martin (RP) makes sense to me. If they are launching the “brand” in F1, nothing better than a BIG name to bring column inches and prestige. Results might be secondary, but never hurt.
I remember Dad’s Army, with Frazer ranting on, “There is no smoke without fire!” The ‘smoke signals’ surrounding Sebastian Vettel and Aston Martin are continuing apace…Berger: Aston Martin deal is in the works for Vettel
Ex-F1 driver Gerhard Berger believes a deal between Sebastian Vettel and Aston Martin Racing for 2021 is currently being negotiated by the two parties.
https://f1i.com/news/377323-berger-convinced-aston...
Perez anticipates arrival Vettel: 'Manager busy talking to other teams'
The fact that Sebastian Vettel will be available before 2021 has been the most intriguing news from the drivers' market since that announcement. The top teams closed the door one by one, leaving Racing Point (Aston Martin next year) as a more competitive opportunity and they seem to interested in the arrival of the German.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/63291/perez-anticip...
Report: Perez exploring other options amidst Vettel negotiations
Racing Point’s desire to sign Sebastian Vettel for 2021 has led Sergio Perez to explore other options on the Formula 1 grid, it has been reported.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/07/16/report-per...
I think at the end of the day if people get up in arms about people like Ocon and Hulkenberg not having a seat with the huge amount of "talent" they have then what would the reaction be to someone like Vettel wanting a seat next year and not being able to get one?
He still has plenty of mileage left in him, I think he could go to any team and improve their current results. I think getting out of Ferrari for him and being in any new environment would really rejuvenate him. Racing Point, however they have got there now have a competitive car so will appeal to him as a car that will allow him to be knocking on the door for race wins next year, will that be the case in 2022? Personally I highly doubt it. If someone like Perez has to get bumped out of the way for his arrival then so what? Perez is largely in the sport because of his financial backing, don't get me wrong he is no slouch but let's not forget he has never won a race. That same backing means he will probably end up at Haas (I don't think anyone would be bothered to see Grosjean out of the sport) or Alfa (Kimi to bow out with a final Bwoah?) anyway so it's not like he won't have a seat either.
I personally however really wouldn't be surprised to see him back at Red Bull next year. Red Bull have long been looking for someone that can match or get very close to Max's pace. They still haven't found them. Alex Albon should be moved back to Alpha Tauri until Vettel retires with some sort of agreement that the other Red Bull seat is his when that happens. No one really mourned Kyvat's departure from the sport last time, again I don't think he is a name that many people would miss. Gasly would probably just be happy for a seat after the ride he has had so he could be left at Alpha Tauri for some time without much complaint. I think if Red Bull want the most points out of their cars they will go for Max and Seb.
He still has plenty of mileage left in him, I think he could go to any team and improve their current results. I think getting out of Ferrari for him and being in any new environment would really rejuvenate him. Racing Point, however they have got there now have a competitive car so will appeal to him as a car that will allow him to be knocking on the door for race wins next year, will that be the case in 2022? Personally I highly doubt it. If someone like Perez has to get bumped out of the way for his arrival then so what? Perez is largely in the sport because of his financial backing, don't get me wrong he is no slouch but let's not forget he has never won a race. That same backing means he will probably end up at Haas (I don't think anyone would be bothered to see Grosjean out of the sport) or Alfa (Kimi to bow out with a final Bwoah?) anyway so it's not like he won't have a seat either.
I personally however really wouldn't be surprised to see him back at Red Bull next year. Red Bull have long been looking for someone that can match or get very close to Max's pace. They still haven't found them. Alex Albon should be moved back to Alpha Tauri until Vettel retires with some sort of agreement that the other Red Bull seat is his when that happens. No one really mourned Kyvat's departure from the sport last time, again I don't think he is a name that many people would miss. Gasly would probably just be happy for a seat after the ride he has had so he could be left at Alpha Tauri for some time without much complaint. I think if Red Bull want the most points out of their cars they will go for Max and Seb.
CoolHands said:
Daddy does have deep pockets then if he can let perez go with all his sponsorship and pay out a stack to VET
They are pretty much guaranteed considerably more prize money this year, cost cap helps with forecasting going forwards, Vettel probably not commanding the same premium he once did.Follow the money, would Russia and Mexico be interested in hosting a GP without Kvyt and Perez in the sport? What do K-Mag and Grosjean bring to the sport except a lot of trouble for Gunther?
Kimi is passed it, although he still has a good fan base with the type of people who find "taking a st" the height of humour and at least is an ex-champion. He's better than Giovinazzi but that isn't saying much, I suppose he's at least a marker to benchmark the young drivers against.
Is there anyone causing big waves in the lower formula except Zhou? People want something from Mick Schumacher but is he going to deliver? Zhou is under Renault now instead of Ferrari and he isn't going there any time soon.
Alonso coming back shows the lack of talent out there IMHO, Vettel being signed to Aston Martin at best is a travesty.
Perez and Kvyt bring $, Haas need $-one of them can get a seat there.
Schumacher needs to get a shift on, stick him in the Alfa otherwise he'll end up doing a Palmer.
Kimi is passed it, although he still has a good fan base with the type of people who find "taking a s
t" the height of humour and at least is an ex-champion. He's better than Giovinazzi but that isn't saying much, I suppose he's at least a marker to benchmark the young drivers against.Is there anyone causing big waves in the lower formula except Zhou? People want something from Mick Schumacher but is he going to deliver? Zhou is under Renault now instead of Ferrari and he isn't going there any time soon.
Alonso coming back shows the lack of talent out there IMHO, Vettel being signed to Aston Martin at best is a travesty.
Perez and Kvyt bring $, Haas need $-one of them can get a seat there.
Schumacher needs to get a shift on, stick him in the Alfa otherwise he'll end up doing a Palmer.
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