Bahrain Winter Test #2: 27th Feb- 1st March
Discussion
pozi said:
smack said:
Yeah Pozi, did you know that? 
Of course they never had to go cap in hand to HSBC 10 years ago... Oh no, of course they didn't.
No of course not, the McLaren PR machine never said it so it can't be true Of course they never had to go cap in hand to HSBC 10 years ago... Oh no, of course they didn't.
Richard-G said:
i give up, you're talking utter crap and I've tried to explain. Mclaren will go bust before the end of the year and wont be able to afford to develop the car after next Tuesday
I am glad to see you are coming round, although nobody said they are going bust, just that the purse strings are a bit tighter this year until Honda come along in 2015.
Chrisgr31 said:
Woody said:
Chrisgr31 said:
Except Ron Dennis seems to have said today that a tile sponsor will be along in a couple of races time!
Do you have a link?Optimistic negotiation with a few companies is hardly concrete.
It's an interesting game of poker because presumably the price needs to be right. At present there is a hope that McLaren will do well, if they do the price will presumably go up, if they do badly it will go down!
In reality I suspect that if the deal is going to be on the cars in a couple of races time it will already be done and probably in legals!
In reality I suspect that if the deal is going to be on the cars in a couple of races time it will already be done and probably in legals!
thegreenhell said:
"The McLaren boss confirmed that the team will have no title sponsor at the first race of the season, but added, “one will feature in a few races after that. We are negotiating with several companies at the moment and I’m optimistic that it will happen sooner than later.”"
Optimistic negotiation with a few companies is hardly concrete.
Easy to find a title sponsor, there are no shortage.Optimistic negotiation with a few companies is hardly concrete.
Question is only one of "how many £££"
Some Gump said:
Yes they can sjn.
By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
With so many variables the errors would multiply up to give a useless result.By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
The GPS car location data could possibly be used to calculate the max acceleration of each car. You know the bhp of your own car and could get a good idea of power by comparing your max acceleration with your competitors. Thats assuming this data is available from at a decent frequency. Do the teams get a raw data feed or is it just a display image so they know where there is space on the track?
The drivers would also be a good guide knowing which cars could pull away from them and vice versa on the straights, coming out of corners.
sjn2004 said:
Some Gump said:
Yes they can sjn.
By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
With so many variables the errors would multiply up to give a useless result.By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
The GPS car location data could possibly be used to calculate the max acceleration of each car. You know the bhp of your own car and could get a good idea of power by comparing your max acceleration with your competitors. Thats assuming this data is available from at a decent frequency. Do the teams get a raw data feed or is it just a display image so they know where there is space on the track?
The drivers would also be a good guide knowing which cars could pull away from them and vice versa on the straights, coming out of corners.
pozi said:
sjn2004 said:
Some Gump said:
Yes they can sjn.
By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
With so many variables the errors would multiply up to give a useless result.By recording the frequency, you know the revs.
From watching the footage, you know the speed.
Now, you can work out the gear ratio.
You can estimate the weight of the car, due to rules in place etc.
You can estimate drag, because aero is what you do for a living.
Et voila, a set of simultaneous equations and you can work out work done, and therefore power.
The GPS car location data could possibly be used to calculate the max acceleration of each car. You know the bhp of your own car and could get a good idea of power by comparing your max acceleration with your competitors. Thats assuming this data is available from at a decent frequency. Do the teams get a raw data feed or is it just a display image so they know where there is space on the track?
The drivers would also be a good guide knowing which cars could pull away from them and vice versa on the straights, coming out of corners.
sjn2004 said:
You didn't answer my point. Lets chuck a little ball in to play with, would the diameter and length of the exhaust pipe change the frequency? How does frequency relate to rpm. Filming from a fixed position, how much you compensate for doppler effect? As regards rpm, how would you calibrate your sound recordings, how would you set a fiducial point?
I wish I knew, then I would have been the highly paid bloke sitting back at the factory mulling over squiggly sound waves instead of flying round the world in cattle class airplane seats!!take some sound from an f1 car (e.g. in this case onboard footage)
filter it to leave just (mostly) the audio from the engine.
fast fourier transform (fft) it to get frequency vs time
identify which gear the car is in at each point (labelled on the graph)
from the rpm drops with each gear change, you can work out the relative ratios of the gear ratios
e.g. Example, passing from 6th to 7th gear the engine rpm drops from 19000 to 17050 meaning that the 6th gear ratio is 1.11 times the 7th gear ratio
correlate a time on your fft plot with the time the car passes through the speed trap. then you know speed and engine rpm so you can exactly calculate that gear ratio (because you know the diameter of the tyres).
you then have all of the other ratios from the information you have about the relative gear ratios.
so now you have a plot of engine speed and car speed vs time. knowing the mass of the car, and an estimate of drag, you can estimate engine power.
credit: all taken from this post http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...
here is another article about it http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00345.html
filter it to leave just (mostly) the audio from the engine.
fast fourier transform (fft) it to get frequency vs time
identify which gear the car is in at each point (labelled on the graph)
from the rpm drops with each gear change, you can work out the relative ratios of the gear ratios
e.g. Example, passing from 6th to 7th gear the engine rpm drops from 19000 to 17050 meaning that the 6th gear ratio is 1.11 times the 7th gear ratio
correlate a time on your fft plot with the time the car passes through the speed trap. then you know speed and engine rpm so you can exactly calculate that gear ratio (because you know the diameter of the tyres).
you then have all of the other ratios from the information you have about the relative gear ratios.
so now you have a plot of engine speed and car speed vs time. knowing the mass of the car, and an estimate of drag, you can estimate engine power.
credit: all taken from this post http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...
here is another article about it http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00345.html
Edited by RealSquirrels on Thursday 6th March 23:08
pozi said:
sjn2004 said:
You didn't answer my point. Lets chuck a little ball in to play with, would the diameter and length of the exhaust pipe change the frequency? How does frequency relate to rpm. Filming from a fixed position, how much you compensate for doppler effect? As regards rpm, how would you calibrate your sound recordings, how would you set a fiducial point?
I wish I knew, then I would have been the highly paid bloke sitting back at the factory mulling over squiggly sound waves instead of flying round the world in cattle class airplane seats!!ash73 said:
All that maths and then *guess* the fuel load and drag...?
You have ballpark drag from your own car's numbers and fuel load from the stint of laps.You're arguing this is wrong for not being 100% perfect? I imagine even imperfect information is very valuable and over time as you build larger datasets you can narrow it down or at least see it relative to other teams.
ash73 said:
RealSquirrels said:
knowing the mass of the car, and an estimate of drag, you can estimate engine power.
All that maths and then *guess* the fuel load and drag...?you know the 'speed profile' of your car - how the speed varies around the track. you know power, torque, downforce and drag figures for your car... you have good models of how your car's speed profile varies when you vary mass (fuel load), downforce, drag, power etc. The other cars have the same mass (e.g. in qualifying) and same tyres... from the work you did you know the speed of the other car at all points on the track. you put it this data into your simulation and the computer varies the values of the other parameters (downfroce, drag, power, torque) until the model matches the real data as closely as possible.
yes, of course it's an estimate, but it's a good one.
ash73 said:
All that maths and then *guess* the fuel load and drag...?
At a 'guess' I would expect those in the know will have a pretty good idea on the drag of the car relative to there own, and in race conditions have a pretty good idea how much fuel is in the car as all cars this year will run regulated amount of fuel during the race...Of course you'd need to know the average weight of the competitor's driver and whether or not he was a few pounds up or down on the day. But that would depend on his meal the previous night but I expect most F1 teams have spies in the local curry house so that's covered and as for liquid intake they can estimate that by carefully watching the out flow from the driver's bogs and dividing it by the number of drivers on the day of the test. Everything's possible
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