Will Max crash into Lewis on the last race just to win?
Discussion
MustangGT said:
I think the FIA could easily lay charges of bringing the sport into disrepute against the following:
Marko and Horner for Red Bull
Max for his antics this year
Themselves for enabling Max this year
Of course they will not though.
Seriously?Marko and Horner for Red Bull
Max for his antics this year
Themselves for enabling Max this year
Of course they will not though.
If so, let's keep some perspective here.
Red Bull and Verstappen clearly haven't covered themselves in glory with some pretty childish antics, iffy driving and targeted political statements but I'd love to see what grounds you think the FIA could 'easily' lay charges on.
Muzzer79 said:
MustangGT said:
I think the FIA could easily lay charges of bringing the sport into disrepute against the following:
Marko and Horner for Red Bull
Max for his antics this year
Themselves for enabling Max this year
Of course they will not though.
Seriously?Marko and Horner for Red Bull
Max for his antics this year
Themselves for enabling Max this year
Of course they will not though.
If so, let's keep some perspective here.
Red Bull and Verstappen clearly haven't covered themselves in glory with some pretty childish antics, iffy driving and targeted political statements but I'd love to see what grounds you think the FIA could 'easily' lay charges on.
This year there has been blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties to try and produce a different WDC. Millions of people have seen, and some have commented on, this. By applying this behaviour it is totally bringing the sport into disrepute, to the extent that it is hard to call it a sport at all. Surely you do not need a list of these, you must have seen them yourself?
As for Red Bull, there has been blatant cheating and then the commentary by Marko and Horner a lot of which are provable lies. All in an attempt to manipulate the results to allow Max to win the WDC and to try to gain the WCC.
MustangGT said:
This year there has been blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties to try and produce a different WDC. Millions of people have seen, and some have commented on, this. By applying this behaviour it is totally bringing the sport into disrepute, to the extent that it is hard to call it a sport at all. Surely you do not need a list of these, you must have seen them yourself?
As for Red Bull, there has been blatant cheating and then the commentary by Marko and Horner a lot of which are provable lies. All in an attempt to manipulate the results to allow Max to win the WDC and to try to gain the WCC.
I have seen several on-track incidents involving Verstappen and Hamilton. I believe the root cause of many of these incidents are Verstappen's over-the-line driving style, which needs reigning in.As for Red Bull, there has been blatant cheating and then the commentary by Marko and Horner a lot of which are provable lies. All in an attempt to manipulate the results to allow Max to win the WDC and to try to gain the WCC.
I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
Muzzer79 said:
I have seen several on-track incidents involving Verstappen and Hamilton. I believe the root cause of many of these incidents are Verstappen's over-the-line driving style, which needs reigning in.
I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
It is the stewards who have been manipulating the penalties and rules to assist RB and Max.I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
Too many examples to list them all, however, a few really stand out:
Copse, Lewis in no way broke any rules whatsoever, yet, he is the one penalised, not Max
Brazil, Max took Lewis so far off the track you could have got several buses through the gap between them and the track, yet no penalty awarded.
RBs bendy rear wing. Should have been an immediate start to the new testing regime, yet 3 races were permitted with the clearly illegal wing, including Baku where it would be most beneficial. Yet when RB complain about the Mercedes wing a new test is introduced immediately.
More wing comments. Lewis got excluded from qualifying and the wing impounded when a broken screw caused a failure by 0.2mm. RB have been allowed to 'modify or repair' their wings, in parc ferme, on at least 3 occasions.
Max has forced Lewis off-track, illegally, more times than I can count with no penalty.
Monza, Max's take out of Lewis appears deliberate, especially when you consider Max's immediate comment. That should have resulted in some kind of suspension at the very least, not just a few place grid penalty.
Max's fine for interfering with Lewis's rear wing, which was later found to be illegal was an absolute joke. This offence would normally lead to being excluded from that session. It should also have been 'reasonable doubt' over the actual wing infraction.
Tis season there has clearly been one set of rules for 9 teams, and another set for RB. That is, to me, absolutely bringing the sport into disrepute.
Those are all FIA/steward related.
Horner and Marko have been making comments far in excess of reasonableness, maligning other teams and drivers with lies and half-truths. I have no problem with the normal level of bickering and other comments, but this was going way too far.
Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
Unless Lewis can get pole and drive off into the distance, I expect a coming together that will be instigated by Max, if Lewis is leading and Max chasing I fully expect him to fully send it into a corner with no hope of making it round to take Lewis out.
This time it's do or die for Max and he's been ramping up the antics as the races are ticked off, he added brake checking to his tactics last weekend along side the usual yield or we crash cornering strategy, I think this time it'll be a straight crash if he can engineer it, like he did at Monza.
This time it's do or die for Max and he's been ramping up the antics as the races are ticked off, he added brake checking to his tactics last weekend along side the usual yield or we crash cornering strategy, I think this time it'll be a straight crash if he can engineer it, like he did at Monza.
MustangGT said:
It is the stewards who have been manipulating the penalties and rules to assist RB and Max.
Too many examples to list them all, however, a few really stand out:
Copse, Lewis in no way broke any rules whatsoever, yet, he is the one penalised, not Max
Brazil, Max took Lewis so far off the track you could have got several buses through the gap between them and the track, yet no penalty awarded.
RBs bendy rear wing. Should have been an immediate start to the new testing regime, yet 3 races were permitted with the clearly illegal wing, including Baku where it would be most beneficial. Yet when RB complain about the Mercedes wing a new test is introduced immediately.
More wing comments. Lewis got excluded from qualifying and the wing impounded when a broken screw caused a failure by 0.2mm. RB have been allowed to 'modify or repair' their wings, in parc ferme, on at least 3 occasions.
Max has forced Lewis off-track, illegally, more times than I can count with no penalty.
Monza, Max's take out of Lewis appears deliberate, especially when you consider Max's immediate comment. That should have resulted in some kind of suspension at the very least, not just a few place grid penalty.
Max's fine for interfering with Lewis's rear wing, which was later found to be illegal was an absolute joke. This offence would normally lead to being excluded from that session. It should also have been 'reasonable doubt' over the actual wing infraction.
Tis season there has clearly been one set of rules for 9 teams, and another set for RB. That is, to me, absolutely bringing the sport into disrepute.
Those are all FIA/steward related.
Horner and Marko have been making comments far in excess of reasonableness, maligning other teams and drivers with lies and half-truths. I have no problem with the normal level of bickering and other comments, but this was going way too far.
Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
Too many examples to list them all, however, a few really stand out:
Copse, Lewis in no way broke any rules whatsoever, yet, he is the one penalised, not Max
Brazil, Max took Lewis so far off the track you could have got several buses through the gap between them and the track, yet no penalty awarded.
RBs bendy rear wing. Should have been an immediate start to the new testing regime, yet 3 races were permitted with the clearly illegal wing, including Baku where it would be most beneficial. Yet when RB complain about the Mercedes wing a new test is introduced immediately.
More wing comments. Lewis got excluded from qualifying and the wing impounded when a broken screw caused a failure by 0.2mm. RB have been allowed to 'modify or repair' their wings, in parc ferme, on at least 3 occasions.
Max has forced Lewis off-track, illegally, more times than I can count with no penalty.
Monza, Max's take out of Lewis appears deliberate, especially when you consider Max's immediate comment. That should have resulted in some kind of suspension at the very least, not just a few place grid penalty.
Max's fine for interfering with Lewis's rear wing, which was later found to be illegal was an absolute joke. This offence would normally lead to being excluded from that session. It should also have been 'reasonable doubt' over the actual wing infraction.
Tis season there has clearly been one set of rules for 9 teams, and another set for RB. That is, to me, absolutely bringing the sport into disrepute.
Those are all FIA/steward related.
Horner and Marko have been making comments far in excess of reasonableness, maligning other teams and drivers with lies and half-truths. I have no problem with the normal level of bickering and other comments, but this was going way too far.
Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
MustangGT said:
Muzzer79 said:
I have seen several on-track incidents involving Verstappen and Hamilton. I believe the root cause of many of these incidents are Verstappen's over-the-line driving style, which needs reigning in.
I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
It is the stewards who have been manipulating the penalties and rules to assist RB and Max.I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
Too many examples to list them all, however, a few really stand out:
>snip<
Tis season there has clearly been one set of rules for 9 teams, and another set for RB. That is, to me, absolutely bringing the sport into disrepute.
Those are all FIA/steward related.
MustangGT said:
Horner and Marko have been making comments far in excess of reasonableness, maligning other teams and drivers with lies and half-truths. I have no problem with the normal level of bickering and other comments, but this was going way too far.
Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
Max has been penalised more than once for his driving. I agree that this needs clamping down on, but bringing the sport into disrepute? Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
Surely tougher sanctions/points on licence/race bans.....
Horner and Marko - well, they're full of it and always have been. But there's no rules against being full of it and calling people names.
MustangGT said:
Muzzer79 said:
I have seen several on-track incidents involving Verstappen and Hamilton. I believe the root cause of many of these incidents are Verstappen's over-the-line driving style, which needs reigning in.
I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
It is the stewards who have been manipulating the penalties and rules to assist RB and Max.I have seen some very mischievous comments from Horner in particular relating to rules and how they (RB) have been treated. Show me a team principle who doesn't play the political game when they need to.
But I haven't seen 'blatant manipulation of the rules and penalties' by Red Bull or Verstappen. Nor 'blatant cheating'
Perhaps I have a short memory. I'm curious as to which incidents you are referring to that, in particular, could 'easily' bring charges of bringing the sport into disrepute, which is pretty serious by the way.
For the record - I can't stand Horner or his cronies and think some of the behaviour last weekend in particular was terrible.
Too many examples to list them all, however, a few really stand out:
Copse, Lewis in no way broke any rules whatsoever, yet, he is the one penalised, not Max
Brazil, Max took Lewis so far off the track you could have got several buses through the gap between them and the track, yet no penalty awarded.
RBs bendy rear wing. Should have been an immediate start to the new testing regime, yet 3 races were permitted with the clearly illegal wing, including Baku where it would be most beneficial. Yet when RB complain about the Mercedes wing a new test is introduced immediately.
More wing comments. Lewis got excluded from qualifying and the wing impounded when a broken screw caused a failure by 0.2mm. RB have been allowed to 'modify or repair' their wings, in parc ferme, on at least 3 occasions.
Max has forced Lewis off-track, illegally, more times than I can count with no penalty.
Monza, Max's take out of Lewis appears deliberate, especially when you consider Max's immediate comment. That should have resulted in some kind of suspension at the very least, not just a few place grid penalty.
Max's fine for interfering with Lewis's rear wing, which was later found to be illegal was an absolute joke. This offence would normally lead to being excluded from that session. It should also have been 'reasonable doubt' over the actual wing infraction.
Tis season there has clearly been one set of rules for 9 teams, and another set for RB. That is, to me, absolutely bringing the sport into disrepute.
Those are all FIA/steward related.
Horner and Marko have been making comments far in excess of reasonableness, maligning other teams and drivers with lies and half-truths. I have no problem with the normal level of bickering and other comments, but this was going way too far.
Max's driving is way below the level of a serious racing driver. He regularly attempts to take out Lewis from the race. In some ways I feel a bit sorry for him, because this behaviour is being encouraged and enabled by Jos, Marko and Horner, they are not doing him any favours at all. The stewards and Michael Massi also should have been all over it early in the season.
RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems.
And it was a couple of screws that were undone in the previous race, not broken. Teams can make changes in the "parc ferme" if they have damage, like in RB's case, but an undone screw is not "damage".
Otherwise yes, fully agree, some of RB's comments were terrible and I would not be surprised if they were charged with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and get fined (although I did enjoy one of Horner's comment, the one that he would not be kissing Toto's arse!).
Masi and the FIA have messed up things, but I think that you are presenting a far darker image than what it is. Especially with Masi, people seem to forget that Charlie also messed up a few things in his time. Let's give him some time.
Siao said:
RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems
I don't think the pitstop changes affected anyone did they? They all follow the same procedure except overall it takes longer. If RBR or another team do the fastest pitstop it is still the fastest.........just not as fast as before as ALL teams have to follow the new procedure.supposedly its rigged anyway https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/100835/verstappen-w...
PhilAsia said:
Siao said:
RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems
I don't think the pitstop changes affected anyone did they? They all follow the same procedure except overall it takes longer. If RBR or another team do the fastest pitstop it is still the fastest.........just not as fast as before as ALL teams have to follow the new procedure.https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1s-new-pitstop-...
RB had 5 sub-2-sec pit stops, so it definitely made them lose an edge there.
This article mentions that they banned them as a result of questions regarding the RB pit stop speed from other teams:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f...
So you can't blame RB if they thought they were aimed with this.
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
Siao said:
This article explains it a lot better than myself!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1s-new-pitstop-...
RB had 5 sub-2-sec pit stops, so it definitely made them lose an edge there.
This article mentions that they banned them as a result of questions regarding the RB pit stop speed from other teams:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f...
So you can't blame RB if they thought they were aimed with this.
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
It seemingly slows every team down by the same amount as far as I understand it...therefore RBR wil still be fastest, just not as fast as previously.https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1s-new-pitstop-...
RB had 5 sub-2-sec pit stops, so it definitely made them lose an edge there.
This article mentions that they banned them as a result of questions regarding the RB pit stop speed from other teams:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f...
So you can't blame RB if they thought they were aimed with this.
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
S600BSB said:
Love all these bonkers conspiracy theories. The first season in a very long time that there is actually a decent competition for the F1 championship there has to be cheating and skullduggery involved!
Not to mention armchair experts suddenly having the ability to see where some of the best drivers in the world are going wrong 
Then, critiquing team bosses who’ve forgotten more than they’ll ever know about the sport which they are so opinionated about 
Siao said:
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
Redbull certainly maintained the fastest median stops after the directive was introduced. They just had a couple of complete screw-ups until they got used to it. I'm 90% sure there has been no intentional bias in the FIA this year but they have been hugely, incompetently, inconsistent and, with no axe to grind either way, it feels like that inconsistency has tended to favour Verstappen on average.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 8th December 17:46
PhilAsia said:
Siao said:
This article explains it a lot better than myself!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1s-new-pitstop-...
RB had 5 sub-2-sec pit stops, so it definitely made them lose an edge there.
This article mentions that they banned them as a result of questions regarding the RB pit stop speed from other teams:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f...
So you can't blame RB if they thought they were aimed with this.
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
It seemingly slows every team down by the same amount as far as I understand it...therefore RBR wil still be fastest, just not as fast as previously.https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1s-new-pitstop-...
RB had 5 sub-2-sec pit stops, so it definitely made them lose an edge there.
This article mentions that they banned them as a result of questions regarding the RB pit stop speed from other teams:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f...
So you can't blame RB if they thought they were aimed with this.
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
kambites said:
Siao said:
But you raise a good point, it would be great to know how much were each team affected by this.
Redbull certainly maintained the fastest median stops after the directive was introduced. They just had a couple of complete screw-ups until they got used to it. I'm 90% sure there has been no intentional bias in the FIA this year but they have been hugely, incompetently, inconsistent and, with no axe to grind either way, it feels like that inconsistency has tended to favour Verstappen on average.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 8th December 17:46
But the fact that the pit stops were "questioned" by other teams and things were changed, makes a pretty convincing argument of the FIA intentionally changing something. Not bias, but normal F1 games I guess, complain when your opponent has an advantage and get it banned!
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