*** The official Formula One 2015-16 off season thread ***

*** The official Formula One 2015-16 off season thread ***

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Vaud

Original Poster:

50,952 posts

157 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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CraigyMc said:
In F1 terms, it's probably not all that tiny. I was wondering about this too. Any specialists on here care to weigh in?

Boundary layer stuff is beyond me but I know it's important.
Some discussion here:

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4...

HustleRussell

24,802 posts

162 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
See shark skin

McAndy

12,691 posts

179 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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HustleRussell said:
Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
See shark skin
Yep. I did a university project on it. Very impressive, but needs to be commercially viable to produce in volume.

HustleRussell

24,802 posts

162 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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I don't see how it could be applied as a paint finish but perhaps as a wrap?

andyps

7,817 posts

284 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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I'm sure I saw a comment somewhere from Horner yesterday saying they had tested the matt finish for aero impact but I haven't got time to search for it at the moment.

DanielSan

18,868 posts

169 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Speed Badger said:
The new Red Bull livery -



credit - Ant Rowlinson, ScarbsF1
Very few sponsors on that car this year.

suffolk009

5,520 posts

167 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Hilarious arguing elsewhere on the internet about the colour of the Red Bull. Some say it's dark blue, others that it's black.

Worth remembering that Movie Stars and their costumiers have long been aware that a midnight blue (much darker than Navy) dinner jacket is preferable on-screen. It photographs darker than black.

I'm not bothered about the colour, just loathe matt finish on all cars.

Vaud

Original Poster:

50,952 posts

157 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Very few sponsors on that car this year.
Personally I have always seen a lot of sponsors as a bad thing.

deadslow

8,062 posts

225 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Vaud said:
DanielSan said:
Very few sponsors on that car this year.
Personally I have always seen a lot of sponsors as a bad thing.
prey tell why?

Vaud

Original Poster:

50,952 posts

157 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
quotequote all
deadslow said:
prey tell why?
I think it show weak, rather than strong overall brand control. If you are a top brand you can afford to be selective with how you both present and manage the end to end brand identity. Ferrari is the peak example of that with Philip Morris. Just because sponsor has cash does not mean that they will be allowed to place an identity on a car.

Clearly the stronger your own identity, the more control you have, and the fussier you can be.

Some cars ending up looking like they have driven through a US shopping mall and picked up every brand ID going and it looks awful. Better to have a car with 2-3 well placed brands and then build an ecosystem around them, controlling carefully who they contribute to your desired market message.

Clearly the further down the grid you go, the less fussy you can be as a team, but in RBs case, given their backing, I am pretty sure that it is choice rather than a lack of sponsor options.

deadslow

8,062 posts

225 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
quotequote all
Vaud said:
deadslow said:
prey tell why?
I think it show weak, rather than strong overall brand control. If you are a top brand you can afford to be selective with how you both present and manage the end to end brand identity. Ferrari is the peak example of that with Philip Morris. Just because sponsor has cash does not mean that they will be allowed to place an identity on a car.

Clearly the stronger your own identity, the more control you have, and the fussier you can be.

Some cars ending up looking like they have driven through a US shopping mall and picked up every brand ID going and it looks awful. Better to have a car with 2-3 well placed brands and then build an ecosystem around them, controlling carefully who they contribute to your desired market message.

Clearly the further down the grid you go, the less fussy you can be as a team, but in RBs case, given their backing, I am pretty sure that it is choice rather than a lack of sponsor options.
Yes, good points. You're not really Ron Dennis, are you? hehe

Vaud

Original Poster:

50,952 posts

157 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
quotequote all
deadslow said:
Yes, good points. You're not really Ron Dennis, are you? hehe
Ouch.

No, but I have spent some time with some F1 sponsors and with the teams they work with and it was roughly their logic (paraphrased) ... wink

Gareth1974

3,422 posts

141 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
I've wondered if using a dimpled surface, like a golf ball would have benefits on some areas of an F1 car, certainly a golf ball with dimples travels much further than one without would.

Munter

31,319 posts

243 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Gareth1974 said:
Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
I've wondered if using a dimpled surface, like a golf ball would have benefits on some areas of an F1 car, certainly a golf ball with dimples travels much further than one without would.
When I've asked that specific question before the response has been it needs to be spherical for the golf ball dimples to work. Then a lot of maths happened. I wasn't totally convinced but I couldn't follow the maths so accept it as correct.

Speed Badger

2,777 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Well they've got the claw back the disadvantage they will probably have to Toro Rosso somehow that are rocking a 2015 spec Ferrari engine...

dr_gn

16,201 posts

186 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Munter said:
Gareth1974 said:
Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
I've wondered if using a dimpled surface, like a golf ball would have benefits on some areas of an F1 car, certainly a golf ball with dimples travels much further than one without would.
When I've asked that specific question before the response has been it needs to be spherical for the golf ball dimples to work. Then a lot of maths happened. I wasn't totally convinced but I couldn't follow the maths so accept it as correct.
It needs to be a "blunt" form where the flow tends to detatch fairly early rather than being brought smoothly back together on leaving the body, for the dimples (or other turbulators) to work effectively.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the car (or most of it) polished for the first test...

RichB

51,898 posts

286 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Gareth1974 said:
I've wondered if using a dimpled surface, like a golf ball would have benefits on some areas of an F1 car, certainly a golf ball with dimples travels much further than one without would.
I believe the purpose of the dimples is to cause the ball to fly straighter rather than further. Rather like the rifling puts a spin on a bullet.

McAndy

12,691 posts

179 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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HustleRussell said:
I don't see how it could be applied as a paint finish but perhaps as a wrap?
That was one option being investigated at the time.

Gareth1974

3,422 posts

141 months

Thursday 18th February 2016
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Munter said:
Gareth1974 said:
Munter said:
Can you make a Matt surface with less friction that a gloss one? Tiny margins all add up etc.
I've wondered if using a dimpled surface, like a golf ball would have benefits on some areas of an F1 car, certainly a golf ball with dimples travels much further than one without would.
When I've asked that specific question before the response has been it needs to be spherical for the golf ball dimples to work. Then a lot of maths happened. I wasn't totally convinced but I couldn't follow the maths so accept it as correct.
I'd heard that too, Wikipedia - not always the best source - says this (below) as well as lots more complicated sounding stuff but nothing specifically saying the effect only applies to spheres, but I guess it must be the case otherwise F1 cars would be dimpled!

"A ball moving through air experiences two major aerodynamic forces, lift and drag. Dimpled balls fly farther than non-dimpled balls due to the combination of these two effects

First, the dimples on the surface of a golf ball cause the boundary layer on the upstream side of the ball to transition from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent boundary layer is able to remain attached to the surface of the ball much longer than a laminar boundary and so creates a narrower low-pressure wake and hence less pressure drag. The reduction in pressure drag causes the ball to travel farther.

Second, backspin generates lift by deforming the airflow around the ball, in a similar manner to an airplane wing. This is called the Magnus effect."


CraigyMc

16,557 posts

238 months

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