Will Max crash into Lewis on the last race just to win?
Discussion
paulguitar said:
S600BSB said:
Ditto. Even my kids are watching it again. It's fabulous to have a proper competition for the championship. Even better that it has gone to the final race of the season. Max is fantastic for the sport - just like Lewis was before him. Looking forward to a great race from the pair of them.
I thought this was a fantastic season until Brazil, and then, much worse, last weekend. I actually thought of the last race as being embarrassing for F1, which is, after all, supposed to be the peak of motorsport, Vertapppen's performance there was the sort of thing that even at a club event would have been wholly unacceptable.I certainly agree it's been great to have had a battle across the season for the title, however, I find it disappointing that we've got one of the protagonists with a demonstrable willingness to try to win by ignoring long-established basic racing rules. I really, really hope that doesn't lead to unpleasantness this weekend, but I think that's by no means guaranteed.
I don't disagree with you about the last race, but I think that was as much to do with the street circuit as the protagonists. I am sure there will be changes.
ch37 said:
Max has a total of 28 penalty points (active and expired), the most of any driver since the system was introduced.
Remember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Vettel has 30 I believe. Kvyat 26 and Max 28 nowRemember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Siao said:
ch37 said:
Max has a total of 28 penalty points (active and expired), the most of any driver since the system was introduced.
Remember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Vettel has 30 I believe. Kvyat 26 and Max 28 nowRemember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Penalty_points
EDIT: This is as of 2nd Oct and appears to show Max as having 30 points (Max has 7 currently I believe)
https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/
Edited by PhilAsia on Thursday 9th December 10:00
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Depends on how you define “brake tested”. He definitely braked, and was going 100kph when he should have been going 300kph.
Whether or not it was a deliberate attempt to cause a crash, is known only to the man himself.
Document from the stewards, describing the incident > https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
Megaflow said:
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
And what have the race stewards decided?
Megaflow said:
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
Schermerhorn said:
Megaflow said:
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
And what have the race stewards decided?
PhilAsia said:
Siao said:
ch37 said:
Max has a total of 28 penalty points (active and expired), the most of any driver since the system was introduced.
Remember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Vettel has 30 I believe. Kvyat 26 and Max 28 nowRemember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Penalty_points
EDIT: This is as of 2nd Oct and appears to show Max as having 30 points (Max has 7 currently I believe)
https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/
Edited by PhilAsia on Thursday 9th December 10:00
Megaflow said:
Schermerhorn said:
Megaflow said:
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
And what have the race stewards decided?
jsf said:
Megaflow said:
Schermerhorn said:
Megaflow said:
PhilAsia said:
Schermerhorn said:
Has it been proven that Max brake tested Lewis or are we just running away with that narrative?
Proven. Braked two and a half times more than a star in a reasonably priced car. 2.4G and 65PSI .......slowing at 60mph per second(anyone ?)
Yes, he brake tested Lewis, in a big way. Beak testing, IMO, should be an instant one race ban. No questions asked.
And what have the race stewards decided?
He pulled so many shady moves during that race I am struggling to tell them apart, which ones he got punished for and which he didn’t!
Siao said:
You can't really think that all these different stewards in all the different tracks are all in cahoots to manipulate the WDC, can you? This is one of the reasons why there are different stewards in every race, so that there is a level of security that they can't be bought off/influenced. A permanent steward could be approached over time, be buddies with some team principal and so on.
RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems.
And it was a couple of screws that were undone in the previous race, not broken. Teams can make changes in the "parc ferme" if they have damage, like in RB's case, but an undone screw is not "damage".
Otherwise yes, fully agree, some of RB's comments were terrible and I would not be surprised if they were charged with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and get fined (although I did enjoy one of Horner's comment, the one that he would not be kissing Toto's arse!).
Masi and the FIA have messed up things, but I think that you are presenting a far darker image than what it is. Especially with Masi, people seem to forget that Charlie also messed up a few things in his time. Let's give him some time.
Read what you wrote around the wings. RB allowed to fix so-called damage at least 3 times under parc ferme, Mercedes not allowed and penalised, even after interference of the part by Max. Hardly a level playing field is it?RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems.
And it was a couple of screws that were undone in the previous race, not broken. Teams can make changes in the "parc ferme" if they have damage, like in RB's case, but an undone screw is not "damage".
Otherwise yes, fully agree, some of RB's comments were terrible and I would not be surprised if they were charged with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and get fined (although I did enjoy one of Horner's comment, the one that he would not be kissing Toto's arse!).
Masi and the FIA have messed up things, but I think that you are presenting a far darker image than what it is. Especially with Masi, people seem to forget that Charlie also messed up a few things in his time. Let's give him some time.
Regarding wings, RB early season wing obviously against the rules, but passed the test. New test introduced, but not for 3 races. MB wing called into question, immediate new test. Again hardly a level playing field.
Brazil, blatant example of 'causing another driver to leave the circuit'. No penalty awarded.
Think back to 2008, the FIA did everything in its power to help Massa in his title bid. Rule 'clarifications' half way through a race in order to penalise Hamilton (Kimi incident at Spa). The same move that Max pulled at Jeddah by the way.
The powers that be decided everybody was bored with Lewis and MB winning all the time and have decided a new champion is required this year and are quite happy to apply penalties, or not, to achieve this result. I am quite happy for anybody to win the titles, so long as it is done with the rules correctly applied to everybody.
MustangGT said:
Siao said:
You can't really think that all these different stewards in all the different tracks are all in cahoots to manipulate the WDC, can you? This is one of the reasons why there are different stewards in every race, so that there is a level of security that they can't be bought off/influenced. A permanent steward could be approached over time, be buddies with some team principal and so on.
RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems.
And it was a couple of screws that were undone in the previous race, not broken. Teams can make changes in the "parc ferme" if they have damage, like in RB's case, but an undone screw is not "damage".
Otherwise yes, fully agree, some of RB's comments were terrible and I would not be surprised if they were charged with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and get fined (although I did enjoy one of Horner's comment, the one that he would not be kissing Toto's arse!).
Masi and the FIA have messed up things, but I think that you are presenting a far darker image than what it is. Especially with Masi, people seem to forget that Charlie also messed up a few things in his time. Let's give him some time.
Read what you wrote around the wings. RB allowed to fix so-called damage at least 3 times under parc ferme, Mercedes not allowed and penalised, even after interference of the part by Max. Hardly a level playing field is it?RB had a wing banned already this year. As were their super fast pit stops. These are conveniently forgotten it seems.
And it was a couple of screws that were undone in the previous race, not broken. Teams can make changes in the "parc ferme" if they have damage, like in RB's case, but an undone screw is not "damage".
Otherwise yes, fully agree, some of RB's comments were terrible and I would not be surprised if they were charged with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and get fined (although I did enjoy one of Horner's comment, the one that he would not be kissing Toto's arse!).
Masi and the FIA have messed up things, but I think that you are presenting a far darker image than what it is. Especially with Masi, people seem to forget that Charlie also messed up a few things in his time. Let's give him some time.
Regarding wings, RB early season wing obviously against the rules, but passed the test. New test introduced, but not for 3 races. MB wing called into question, immediate new test. Again hardly a level playing field.
Brazil, blatant example of 'causing another driver to leave the circuit'. No penalty awarded.
Think back to 2008, the FIA did everything in its power to help Massa in his title bid. Rule 'clarifications' half way through a race in order to penalise Hamilton (Kimi incident at Spa). The same move that Max pulled at Jeddah by the way.
The powers that be decided everybody was bored with Lewis and MB winning all the time and have decided a new champion is required this year and are quite happy to apply penalties, or not, to achieve this result. I am quite happy for anybody to win the titles, so long as it is done with the rules correctly applied to everybody.
You calling the RB damages "so called", doesn't mean much to me I'm afraid. If they had damages and got permission to change things (especially on safety grounds), then fair enough. Can you prove the opposite? Tightening some screw is not damage, nor did (to my knowledge) Mercedes sought for permission to do that: the first time they got a whiff that they had an issue was during the test that they also attended, where the part failed. Maybe they would have gotten permission if they asked beforehand, we can't know. But my guess is that it was such a small thing, not visible by the naked eye, so they were not aware that the screw was undone in order to ask for permission to fix it.
And which rule exactly did they clarify half way trough the race in Spa '08? They gave Hamilton a penalty after the race, not half way through it. This is starting to read like a rant.
Actually yeah, ok, reading your last paragraphs and "the powers that decided" things for us, makes me think that I shouldn't be arguing with you in here...
Siao said:
ch37 said:
Max has a total of 28 penalty points (active and expired), the most of any driver since the system was introduced.
Remember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Vettel has 30 I believe. Kvyat 26 and Max 28 nowRemember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
All nurtured the Red Bull family.
I suppose Red Bull spot hard-chargers and hope to turn them into winners. If only they could knock the edges off such drivers whilst nurturing maturity and racecraft; perhaps taking on a good quality sports psychologist could help them as a team?
Jacobyte said:
Siao said:
ch37 said:
Max has a total of 28 penalty points (active and expired), the most of any driver since the system was introduced.
Remember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
Vettel has 30 I believe. Kvyat 26 and Max 28 nowRemember not so long ago Max and Christian 'proved' they were not dirty by showing the penalty points? The two RB drivers now jointly second top the table of active points with 7 each (with an Alpha Tauri driver top for good measure).
All nurtured the Red Bull family.
I suppose Red Bull spot hard-chargers and hope to turn them into winners. If only they could knock the edges off such drivers whilst nurturing maturity and racecraft; perhaps taking on a good quality sports psychologist could help them as a team?
), but it is quite funny that they got the creme de la creme of that list!Siao said:
I guess. I mean, it's not that they instruct them to go out there and drive like idiots (or do they? ), but it is quite funny that they got the creme de la creme of that list!
If you have Christan Horner and Helmut Marco at the top of an organization, it can't be much of a surprise to see some issues further down. Both appear to be significantly challenged in the integrity department.), but it is quite funny that they got the creme de la creme of that list!
paulguitar said:
Siao said:
I guess. I mean, it's not that they instruct them to go out there and drive like idiots (or do they? ), but it is quite funny that they got the creme de la creme of that list!
If you have Christan Horner and Helmut Marco at the top of an organization, it can't be much of a surprise to see some issues further down. Both appear to be significantly challenged in the integrity department.), but it is quite funny that they got the creme de la creme of that list!Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff