Max Verstappen

[PhilAsia]

Muzzer79 said:

HustleRussell said:

The penalty for that needs to be a deterrent. We need to have drivers giving the place back at the earliest possible opportunity for fear of a severe penalty which will cost them the place, no matter what the collateral damage to their race.

"That was six laps ago- I can't let him past now, there's another competitor in between"- That's on you buddy, should've given up the place immediately, you now have to give up both places. If you don't do that we will give you a time penalty at the flag which is however long it needs to be to place you behind the driver you originally wronged.

I agree with your sentiment, however I can forsee a problem on marginal calls.

Everyone is trying to push the envelope - we want that, this is the pinnacle of motorsport after all.

So if you try a move that is 50/50 in terms of outcome of a penalty or not - do you cede the place when you could potentially have kept it? Or drive on and see what happens?

The over-riding consensus now (including from Max) seems to be to do the latter and deal with the penalty - perhaps because the penalty isn't strong enough but also because one might get away with it.

It's a difficult one. Whilst Max's driving frustrates me sometimes (primarily because I think he has the talent to not need to resort to such tactics) I also applaud him for having a go.

It's his defensive tactics and hypocrisy in terms of what he expects from other drivers which I think are more of an issue.....

Max carries both cars into a late, late, late braking situation...carries the car off, gets in front, doesn't have to overwork his tyres whilst the following car does and is able to work his tyres optimally from the front.

[MarkwG]

PhilAsia said:

Muzzer79 said:

HustleRussell said:

The penalty for that needs to be a deterrent. We need to have drivers giving the place back at the earliest possible opportunity for fear of a severe penalty which will cost them the place, no matter what the collateral damage to their race.

"That was six laps ago- I can't let him past now, there's another competitor in between"- That's on you buddy, should've given up the place immediately, you now have to give up both places. If you don't do that we will give you a time penalty at the flag which is however long it needs to be to place you behind the driver you originally wronged.

I agree with your sentiment, however I can forsee a problem on marginal calls.

Everyone is trying to push the envelope - we want that, this is the pinnacle of motorsport after all.

So if you try a move that is 50/50 in terms of outcome of a penalty or not - do you cede the place when you could potentially have kept it? Or drive on and see what happens?

The over-riding consensus now (including from Max) seems to be to do the latter and deal with the penalty - perhaps because the penalty isn't strong enough but also because one might get away with it.

It's a difficult one. Whilst Max's driving frustrates me sometimes (primarily because I think he has the talent to not need to resort to such tactics) I also applaud him for having a go.

It's his defensive tactics and hypocrisy in terms of what he expects from other drivers which I think are more of an issue.....

Max carries both cars into a late, late, late braking situation...carries the car off, gets in front, doesn't have to overwork his tyres whilst the following car does and is able to work his tyres optimally from the front.

I also wonder about the oft quoted, but as far as I can tell, not written, "first lap incidents treated less harshly" "rule". Verstappen seems to be the kind of mentality that would see that as an opportunity...

[deadslow]

MarkwG said:

I also wonder about the oft quoted, but as far as I can tell, not written, "first lap incidents treated less harshly" "rule". Verstappen seems to be the kind of mentality that would see that as an opportunity...

if you failed to see that as an opportunity there's something wrong with you.

[RB Will]

HustleRussell said:

RB Will said:

Feels a bit of a biased view. I can’t imagine you said similar when A.N. Other driver has done same or worse in the past?

Why can't you imagine that? I for one was very critical of Hamilton in his understeer era (Rosberg years). I am a competitor at club level, do you think I want that move to become an accepted part of the motorsport playbook?

I was responding to Phil.
Definitely wasn’t just the Rosberg years that were his understeer era.
And I’d hope nobody wants driving others off track to be acceptable.

[PhilAsia]

RB Will said:

HustleRussell said:

RB Will said:

Feels a bit of a biased view. I can’t imagine you said similar when A.N. Other driver has done same or worse in the past?

Why can't you imagine that? I for one was very critical of Hamilton in his understeer era (Rosberg years). I am a competitor at club level, do you think I want that move to become an accepted part of the motorsport playbook?

I was responding to Phil.
Definitely wasn’t just the Rosberg years that were his understeer era.
And I’d hope nobody wants driving others off track to be acceptable.

I would say that it often a far far more obvious braking event that often oversteps the rules. And far more frequent.

A.N.Other is much more subtle and, despite a few hiccups, more ready to back out.

Edit: Not that we will ever agree

[HustleRussell]

RB Will said:

I was responding to Phil.
Definitely wasn’t just the Rosberg years that were his understeer era.
And I’d hope nobody wants driving others off track to be acceptable.

It's the Rosberg years which stick in my mind because given the number of times they started together on the front row it was obvious that it was systematic from Hamilton. It pissed me off every time Hamilton did it and then eventually Rosberg felt he had to lower himself to it. I was rooting for Rosberg until he won it and retired.

Right now it is Verstappen who is obviously doing that move systematically.

[deadslow]

the best drivers identify every opportunity and make a calculation. For the very best drivers, their calculation is usually right. It's not an issue.

[Bo_apex]

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

[Muzzer79]

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

If you were a top line F1 driver, you'd have gone to Jaguar with Lauda for the 2002 season then?

Or gone to Honda with Brawn in 2008?

After all, you'd be pretty thick to disregard them......

Good luck with that career.

[HighwayStar]

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

[Bo_apex]

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

If you were a top line F1 driver, you'd have gone to Jaguar with Lauda for the 2002 season then?

Or gone to Honda with Brawn in 2008?

After all, you'd be pretty thick to disregard them......

Good luck with that career.

I see you're resorting to Strawman again

[Bo_apex]

HighwayStar said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

News: without Max in town, Sergio Perez would now be WDC

[paulguitar]

Bo_apex said:

HighwayStar said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

News: without Max in town, Sergio Perez would now be WDC

bks.

He'd need the driver of the other Red Bull to be completely inept to have not beaten him.

[Bo_apex]

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

HighwayStar said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

News: without Max in town, Sergio Perez would now be WDC

bks.

He'd need the driver of the other Red Bull to be completely inept to have not beaten him.

Same as Bottas at Mercedes

[paulguitar]

Bo_apex said:

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

HighwayStar said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

News: without Max in town, Sergio Perez would now be WDC

bks.

He'd need the driver of the other Red Bull to be completely inept to have not beaten him.

Same as Bottas at Mercedes

It's just mindless speculation.

It must be almost time for another sailing trip, Sparta.

[HighwayStar]

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

HighwayStar said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

There’s a lot of think people in the sport who thought it was a big gamble for him to go to Mercedes. One even thought his replacement at Mclaren was potential world champion material… Sergio Perez.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

News: without Max in town, Sergio Perez would now be WDC

bks.

He'd need the driver of the other Red Bull to be completely inept to have not beaten him.

Same as Bottas at Mercedes

It's just mindless speculation.

It must be almost time for another sailing trip, Sparta.

You know it’s time to give up… it’s not worth it.

[Muzzer79]

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

PlywoodPascal said:

you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.

consensus schmensus

Lauda was correct.

Indeed he was.

But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.

So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?

This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.

But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.

But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..

Lauda and Brawn were the salesmen for Works Mercedes and their incoming W05.
You'd be pretty thick to disregard them and the opportunity.

If you were a top line F1 driver, you'd have gone to Jaguar with Lauda for the 2002 season then?

Or gone to Honda with Brawn in 2008?

After all, you'd be pretty thick to disregard them......

Good luck with that career.

I see you're resorting to Strawman again

Well.........no.

But I see you've run out of steam on this one, so we'll leave it there.

[blueg33]

Max is such a whinger. Looks like he is now complaining about having to cross time zones and drive at different times of day.

Suck it up Max, you are paid tens of millions every year and lead an extremely privileged lifestyle, a few late nights are easier than a lifetime of shift work at minimum wage.

[Sycamore]

Reminds me of Wayne Rooney some years back complaining about 12:30 kick-off football matches, and how it's difficult to eat lots of pasta so early in the morning for the carbs.

Someone replied along the lines of "Mate I'd stick bowls of pasta up my arse for £200k a week"

[RB Will]

Not seen whatever interview he has said it in.
Is he actually properly complaining about it like “waaaa it is so unreasonable they make us do this, I’m a princess and need my beauty sleep” or is it a case of interviewer asking for His thoughts on the travel and timings and he has just responded with something like “ yeah it is a bit of a trek and a rush, big time zone shift doesn’t help but it is what it is” like 99.9% of the population would do?