How long can McLaren survive...?

[entropy]

markcoznottz said:

And they gave Ilmor a near enough blank cheque to do it.

Not really. Merc took over from Chevy's stake in Ilmor in the early 90s which means Ilmor does the work and Merc can take credit. The blank cheque came from Merc buying out Ilmor and turning it into HPE.

[markcoznottz]

entropy said:

markcoznottz said:

And they gave Ilmor a near enough blank cheque to do it.

Not really. Merc took over from Chevy's stake in Ilmor in the early 90s which means Ilmor does the work and Merc can take credit. The blank cheque came from Merc buying out Ilmor and turning it into HPE.

But merc increased the engine costs in F1 out of all proportion. And they have done it again now.

[Europa1]

markcoznottz said:

entropy said:

markcoznottz said:

And they gave Ilmor a near enough blank cheque to do it.

Not really. Merc took over from Chevy's stake in Ilmor in the early 90s which means Ilmor does the work and Merc can take credit. The blank cheque came from Merc buying out Ilmor and turning it into HPE.

But merc increased the engine costs in F1 out of all proportion. And they have done it again now.

How have they done it again now? Mercedes didn't unilaterally get rid of the V8s and bring in the current engine formula.

[entropy]

markcoznottz said:

entropy said:

markcoznottz said:

And they gave Ilmor a near enough blank cheque to do it.

Not really. Merc took over from Chevy's stake in Ilmor in the early 90s which means Ilmor does the work and Merc can take credit. The blank cheque came from Merc buying out Ilmor and turning it into HPE.

But merc increased the engine costs in F1 out of all proportion. And they have done it again now.

Not in the 90s. It's not what you think of simply throwing money around. Merc didn't have to do that. As I said they brought a Chevy's share (who were leaving Indycar) in Ilmor and let Ilmor get on with it and take credit as they were shareholder.

Merc brought out the Ilmor-Merc factory at the height of doing business in F1 when you had full manufacturer involvement eg. Renault, Honda, Toyota.

In the past couple of years Merc simply did the better job. Simply Merc runs a split turbo package which Renault and Ferrari could have done but initially didn't. Honda and Ferrari now run it but Merc have a head start.

To blame the problems by money is far too simplistic and arguably less of a variable when you consider that Ross Brawn wanted to invest the time available for R&D work on the turbo engines - Renault spent less time on it and they were one of the most vocal advocates of turbo technology.

[ralphrj]

entropy said:

Not in the 90s. It's not what you think of simply throwing money around. Merc didn't have to do that. As I said they brought a Chevy's share (who were leaving Indycar) in Ilmor and let Ilmor get on with it and take credit as they were shareholder.

I think you are missing Mark's point. Whilst it is true that Mercedes had a stake in the company it is the enormous amount that they paid to Ilmor to fund the F1 engine programme that got them success.

[entropy]

ralphrj said:

I think you are missing Mark's point. Whilst it is true that Mercedes had a stake in the company it is the enormous amount that they paid to Ilmor to fund the F1 engine programme that got them success.

But initially they weren't big spenders - isn't that how German companies mirror its society ie. being careful with money? They spent more when they attained success which has allowed them to stay in F1 in the long term compared to say Renault who were big spenders and pulled in the mid-90s.

[revrange]

btcc123 said:

Free engines plus Alonso worth mega bucks.Mercedes have spent 4 years on their engine and spent 500 million Euros so far.Honda will spend that kind of money and from 2016 will want a couple of pay teams to help pay the costs.I can see Red Ball and Toro Rosso interested if Renault dont pull their finger out.

Where does the figure of 500 million euros come from?

I doubt very much Mclaren would let Red Bull anywhere near, and also Red bull wouldn't want to be a customer team, they would want works level package

[revrange]

entropy said:

Not in the 90s. It's not what you think of simply throwing money around. Merc didn't have to do that. As I said they brought a Chevy's share (who were leaving Indycar) in Ilmor and let Ilmor get on with it and take credit as they were shareholder.

Merc brought out the Ilmor-Merc factory at the height of doing business in F1 when you had full manufacturer involvement eg. Renault, Honda, Toyota.

In the past couple of years Merc simply did the better job. Simply Merc runs a split turbo package which Renault and Ferrari could have done but initially didn't. Honda and Ferrari now run it but Merc have a head start.

To blame the problems by money is far too simplistic and arguably less of a variable when you consider that Ross Brawn wanted to invest the time available for R&D work on the turbo engines - Renault spent less time on it and they were one of the most vocal advocates of turbo technology.

Correct on most points but honda and ferrari aren't running quiet the same Turbo split set up as Merc. Merc still only ones with it at the front the engine, others have it at the back, but plays on that version. Honda is interesting and may work out better in the end, who knows.

[Rich_W]

007 VXR said:

Why not just put big Honda logos all over it for now?

To me. This makes sense.

Running a car with next to no sponsors just shouts "we're worthless" to any potential sponsors. How many companies are now beating a path to Manor? Probably none. If McLaren started to fill the car with stickers, all their associate partners http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/partners/ could have a small sticker on the car somewhere. Even if it doesn't involve those sponsors upping their investment or parts supply. Just makes McLaren look better overall. Stops people like us (and thus bigger blue chips) wondering if the company is financially stable enough to bother with.

rubystone said:

DanielSan said:

Road cars aren't doing as well as people would think either, they've been over stocking dealers and registering cars but not selling them. Mainly because potential customers are expecting the car they buy to be the 'old' model within 6 months after the 12c/650s debacle.

Every 675 is sold and most speccced with the £40k of extras considered essential for resale.

I wouldn't have expected McLaren to do the Peugoet/Ford/Vauxhall/Honda/Toyota trick of building without a customer order just to do pre-regs. But conversely I've hardly seen any 12C/650s McLarens on the road over the last few months. Maybe 2 at a push. So hardly falling over the things at the supermarket. So maybe they are just stockpiling to cheat the sales figures.

[DanielSan]

That pretty much covers it... Makes the numbers look higher while disguising the distinctly low number of sales compared to what they have targeted/expect/hope for.

[Melman Giraffe]

Road car doing well - New show room opening in Ascot

[Lost soul]

BoRED S2upid said:

I'm sure they could have plenty of sponsors littering the car if they wanted to but you have to be careful of the right sponsor you can't devalue the brand.

I doubt they would turn a sponsor away , I think as has been said before they still demand ridiculous sums of £ when they are no longer offering the same value as they did back in the golden days

[Likes Fast Cars]

rubystone said:

Every 675 is sold and most speccced with the £40k of extras considered essential for resale.

Maybe they should just focus on special editions?

When will you take delivery of yours?