Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

another straw man argument ...as a: i've never said that (obv's Schumi was very very good) & b: i've never met the man, hating someone you haven't met is frankly silly

it's just he'd struggle to get into my top 5 (which seemed to also send you into a frothing frenzy in a previous thread)

anyways ...ill leave you to continue to poke holes in your Michael poster

Edited by angrymoby on Thursday 31st October 09:22

the usual posts from Mr Angry - no evidence or objectivity, just meaningless unsubstantiated dross.

I read that reddit link with Irvine's comments and it confirms what I was saying.

Maybe you should apply for a position at Autosport and tell them how Schumacher's '96 and '97 Ferraris were the second best I'd love to see how that goes.

Here's more evidence of Schumacher's superior racecraft and intellect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYSTaVBpwPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80n93w1gK18

[TobyTR]

mattikake said:

You know it's interesting that while his speed can be unmatched, it's Lewis' wheel-to-wheel race craft that gives me the stand out "wow" moments.

Those that immediately come to mind are (and dates may be a bit foggy for an old man);

Malaysia 2009 v Webber's all-conquering RBR and the McLaren that was currently a dog. LH found himself in front and by pure racecraft he managed to hold off a car that was up to 6 seconds a lap faster at this stage of the race by suckering MW into numerous out braking himself moments. They passed and repassed 9 times before MW found himself in an uncompromised corner and got out of range. Not once did LH touch him or push him off.

Malaysia 2010. That race when Hamilton, Massa, Button and Alonso all got caught out in quali and started at the back. LH started behind all of them and in 12 laps he went from 20th to 7th while Massa, Button and Alonso went nowhere.

Bahrain 2015 v Rosberg. Caught out by a SC on the wrong tyres he racecrafted the a$$ out of Rosberg and kept his slower car in front.

Spa 2018 v Vettel. Knowing that SV's Ferrari was faster in a straight line LH went slower on the approach to Eau Rouge so that SV had to lift, compromising his slipstream, keeping LH ahead and winning him the race.

And many many more. Turkey 2006 and 2012 v Button. Malaysia 2013 v Schumi. Britain 2009 v Alonso...

Each time LH made his opponents look intellectually inferior as he beat them into the ground with wits on the track.

Yet... I cannot think of one single moment where Schumacher demonstrated anywhere near the same level of wheel-to-wheel racecraft. Even masters of overtaking racecraft and understanding like Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity.

IMO Hamilton is literally in a class of one in this respect.

Lewis is a top-5 great no doubt, but more-often-than-not in tricky situations he has to be told what to do by his engineers and doesn't problem solve or come up with solutions himself like Schumacher or Alonso did. So many times over the last 10 years we've seen and heard him micro-managed and re-assured by Bono

One of the main reasons why Button beat him in 2011 and finished WDC runner-up was because Button had a better racing brain and could think through racing situations better as things transpired and conditions changed, he was a bit like Prost for that. This helped him cancel out some of Hamilton's superior speed

Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 31st October 21:51

[angrymoby]

TobyTR said:

objectivity

If you were being 'objective' wouldn't you have posted up the stats for the other teams in '97?

1997 Ferrari F310B
Schumacher average grid position: 3.64 (3 pole positions)
Irvine average grid position: 9.35 (0 pole positions)

Schumacher retirements/ DNF's : 3 (1 Mechanical)
Irvine retirements/ DNF's : 6! (2 Mechanical)


1997 Benetton B197
Alesi average grid position: 8.2 (1 pole position)
Berger (Wurz) average grid position: 9 (1 pole position)

Alesi retirements/ DNF's : 3 (0 Mechanical)
Berger (Wurz) retirements/ DNF's : 3 (1 Mechanical)


1997 McLaren MP4/12
Häkkinen average grid position: 5.8 (1 pole position)
Coulthard average grid position: 7.8 (0 pole positions)

Häkkinen retirements/ DNF's : 6 (5 Mechanical)
Coulthard retirements/ DNF's : 7 (4 Mechanical)

& i can see why you would omit all the other data for the other teams/ cars

Berger & Alesi qualified roughly around Irvine in Quali, but managed to stay out of trouble in races

Häkkinen's & Coulthard roughly a couple of places ahead of Irvine ...but blighted by the MP4/12 being x3! more unreliable then the Ferrari


so:

difficult cars aren't necessarily slow

& 'better' race cars have to be both fast AND reliable


& That's why i think the F310B was the second best race car in '97 ...backed up by it being 35pts clear of the 3rd place Benetton & the Ferrari sister car should really have picked up more points than it did (mainly due to Irvine's lack of maturity & ability)

& now ill leave you to your youtube vids & your posters

[37chevy]

TobyTR said:

Lewis is a top-5 great no doubt, but more-often-than-not in tricky situations he has to be told what to do by his engineers and doesn't problem solve or come up with solutions himself like Schumacher or Alonso did. So many times over the last 10 years we've seen and heard him micro-managed and re-assured by Bono

Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 31st October 21:51

Really? I mean for a starter you have no way to back up your first point since there was no team radios broadcast when alonso/ Schumacher were at their prime

Secondly you don’t win 6 world titles without being able to problem solve or come up with solutions, and in fact we’ve seen a few times this year where he’s gone against the team and benefitted from running his own strategy decisions

Thirdly, as stated elsewhere, a lot of radio chatter is BS to throw others off the scent.

[37chevy]

Frimley111R said:

Hamilton is a dynamic and skilled driver but I don't remember him just smashing the opposition into existence or creating those truly 'wow' moments.

Really?

Monaco 2008
Bahrain 2014
Germany 2018
Silverstone 2008

Off the top of my head and Too many qualifying performances to count

[TobyTR]

37chevy said:

Really? I mean for a starter you have no way to back up your first point since there was no team radios broadcast when alonso/ Schumacher were at their prime

Secondly you don’t win 6 world titles without being able to problem solve or come up with solutions, and in fact we’ve seen a few times this year where he’s gone against the team and benefitted from running his own strategy decisions

Thirdly, as stated elsewhere, a lot of radio chatter is BS to throw others off the scent.

Ross Brawn has said in many interviews on the rare occasion when they would propose an extreme out-of-the-box strategy to Michael during a race he would say "okay" and execute it. They trusted each other implicitly.

Andrea Stella, Ferrari race engineer: "Our collaboration over the years was very positive. He was relaxed and open to our ways of working at Ferrari. I think he is much cleverer than me. In the race I'd say "we need to do something" and he would come back with an answer I'd never have thought of. And he could do it while driving."

Pat Symonds, Renault technical boss 2002-2009: "Fernando is very clever but very laid back, and in the early days this could mask his intensity. In a briefing you'd think he wasn't paying attention and then he would ask an incredibly pertinent question that showed he was really digging deep. There's a lot of capacity when driving, too. He set the fastest lap at the Canadian grand prix one year and was talking to us all the way round the lap about some aspects of the race."

Team radios have been broadcasted since at least 2009.

Can you list all the races where he's gone against his team's strategy? I've counted one this year (British GP when they wanted him to pit because he had a large enough gap out in front and he refused), oh and this:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/27/lewi...

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

If you were being 'objective' wouldn't you have posted up the stats for the other teams in '97?

1997 Ferrari F310B
Schumacher average grid position: 3.64 (3 pole positions)
Irvine average grid position: 9.35 (0 pole positions)

Schumacher retirements/ DNF's : 3 (1 Mechanical)
Irvine retirements/ DNF's : 6! (2 Mechanical)


1997 Benetton B197
Alesi average grid position: 8.2 (1 pole position)
Berger (Wurz) average grid position: 9 (1 pole position)

Alesi retirements/ DNF's : 3 (0 Mechanical)
Berger (Wurz) retirements/ DNF's : 3 (1 Mechanical)


1997 McLaren MP4/12
Häkkinen average grid position: 5.8 (1 pole position)
Coulthard average grid position: 7.8 (0 pole positions)

Häkkinen retirements/ DNF's : 6 (5 Mechanical)
Coulthard retirements/ DNF's : 7 (4 Mechanical)

& i can see why you would omit all the other data for the other teams/ cars

Berger & Alesi qualified roughly around Irvine in Quali, but managed to stay out of trouble in races

Häkkinen's & Coulthard roughly a couple of places ahead of Irvine ...but blighted by the MP4/12 being x3! more unreliable then the Ferrari


so:

difficult cars aren't necessarily slow

& 'better' race cars have to be both fast AND reliable


& That's why i think the F310B was the second best race car in '97 ...backed up by it being 35pts clear of the 3rd place Benetton & the Ferrari sister car should really have picked up more points than it did (mainly due to Irvine's lack of maturity & ability)

& now ill leave you to your youtube vids & your posters

Lol, your data shows both McLarens and Benettons still performing better than Irvine!

"Berger & Alesi qualified roughly around Irvine in Quali" - no they didn't; Irvine averaged 9.35, Berger/Wurz 9.0 & Alesi 8.17

It also clearly shows the Benettons were more reliable and faster than the Ferraris. Benettons had 1 mechanical DNF and Ferrari had 3 mechanical DNFs. So that shows the Benetton to be both fast and reliable. = better car than the Ferrari.

Here's the championship table again:

Ferrari: Schumacher 78pts Irvine 24pts
McLaren: Coulthard 36pts, Hakkinen 27pts
Benetton: Alesi 36pts, Berger 27pts (Berger missed 3 races through illness and still had more points than Irvine)


Has it occurred to you that the reason why Irvine spun so much was because of the car's problems well documented on that reddit page by his own comments - that you've conveniently ignored again..... because apparently you know better than ex F1 drivers and F1 journalists. Oh dear.

Ferrari finished 35 points ahead of Benetton because Schumacher somehow scored a massive 54 points more than his teammate - do the maths. To put it another way, Schumacher scored 76.5% of Ferrari's points that year.

I've just done the same calculations for 2009 and it makes for fascinating reading:

McLaren
Hamilton average grid position: 9.0 (4 pole positions) 69.01% of McLaren's total points that year
Kovalainen average grid position: 10.88 (0 pole positions)

Renault
Alonso average grid position: 8.94 (1 pole position) scored 100% of Renault's total points that year
Piquet Jr / Romain Grosjean: 15.29 (0 pole positions)

another example of drivers performing beyond the expectations of their mediocre F1 cars.


I'm thoroughly enjoying this, it's easy pickings and highly entertaining

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 1st November 03:20

[37chevy]

TobyTR said:

Ross Brawn has said in many interviews on the rare occasion when they would propose an extreme out-of-the-box strategy to Michael during a race he would say "okay" and execute it. They trusted each other implicitly

Huh you mean like Lewis at Monaco or Mexico, making tyres last longer than anyone else....yes he moans but as pointed out it’s mainly diversion tactics....

I’m sure you could quote plenty of pieces praising Lewis for the same traits, but why let that get in the way of a biased opinion ;-)

[TobyTR]

"diversion tactics" that's a new one was he doing the same diversion tactics in 2011 and 2016 with Nico? Lol.

Credit where it's due, Lewis is very good at managing tyres. But Schumacher and Alonso had more race intellect.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46237953

That's not to say Lewis wasn't stronger than them in different areas, because he was, such as outright one-lap speed.

[mattikake]

TobyTR said:

mattikake said:

You know it's interesting that while his speed can be unmatched, it's Lewis' wheel-to-wheel race craft that gives me the stand out "wow" moments.

Those that immediately come to mind are (and dates may be a bit foggy for an old man);

Malaysia 2009 v Webber's all-conquering RBR and the McLaren that was currently a dog. LH found himself in front and by pure racecraft he managed to hold off a car that was up to 6 seconds a lap faster at this stage of the race by suckering MW into numerous out braking himself moments. They passed and repassed 9 times before MW found himself in an uncompromised corner and got out of range. Not once did LH touch him or push him off.

Malaysia 2010. That race when Hamilton, Massa, Button and Alonso all got caught out in quali and started at the back. LH started behind all of them and in 12 laps he went from 20th to 7th while Massa, Button and Alonso went nowhere.

Bahrain 2015 v Rosberg. Caught out by a SC on the wrong tyres he racecrafted the a$$ out of Rosberg and kept his slower car in front.

Spa 2018 v Vettel. Knowing that SV's Ferrari was faster in a straight line LH went slower on the approach to Eau Rouge so that SV had to lift, compromising his slipstream, keeping LH ahead and winning him the race.

And many many more. Turkey 2006 and 2012 v Button. Malaysia 2013 v Schumi. Britain 2009 v Alonso...

Each time LH made his opponents look intellectually inferior as he beat them into the ground with wits on the track.

Yet... I cannot think of one single moment where Schumacher demonstrated anywhere near the same level of wheel-to-wheel racecraft. Even masters of overtaking racecraft and understanding like Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity.

IMO Hamilton is literally in a class of one in this respect.

Lewis is a top-5 great no doubt, but more-often-than-not in tricky situations he has to be told what to do by his engineers and doesn't problem solve or come up with solutions himself like Schumacher or Alonso did. So many times over the last 10 years we've seen and heard him micro-managed and re-assured by Bono

One of the main reasons why Button beat him in 2011 and finished WDC runner-up was because Button had a better racing brain and could think through racing situations better as things transpired and conditions changed, he was a bit like Prost for that. This helped him cancel out some of Hamilton's superior speed

Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 31st October 21:51

Different eras have different styles of driver management, and these radio messages are used to deliberately distract other teams.

But I'm confused what relevance your point has to my post and in particular to the part you highlighted - wheel-to-wheel racecraft "wow" moments?

[angrymoby]

TobyTR said:

Lol, your data shows both McLarens and Benettons still performing better than Irvine!

"Berger & Alesi qualified roughly around Irvine in Quali" - no they didn't; Irvine averaged 9.35, Berger/Wurz 9.0 & Alesi 8.17

quibbling about 0.35 & 1.1 Qualifying positions not being 'around' lol

TobyTR said:

It also clearly shows the Benettons were more reliable and faster than the Ferraris. Benettons had 1 mechanical DNF and Ferrari had 3 mechanical DNFs. So that shows the Benetton to be both fast and reliable. = better car than the Ferrari.

again, it doesn't ...it shows that the Benetton was a fag paper ahead in Quali of one of the Ferrari's & yes, correct they had better reliability - but they also didn't crash as much as one of the Ferrari's- that's nothing to with a cars speed/ reliability

TobyTR said:

Has it occurred to you that the reason why Irvine spun so much was because of the car's problems well documented on that reddit page by his own comments - that you've conveniently ignored again..... because apparently you know better than ex F1 drivers and F1 journalists. Oh dear.

ignored because Eddies/ Reddit comments are about the '96 F310 (you made the initial assertion about '97, so trying to keep it on point- not that you're trying to muddy the waters or anything) & also covered by 'difficult cars aren't necessarily slow'

TobyTR said:

Ferrari finished 35 points ahead of Benetton because Schumacher somehow scored a massive 54 points more than his teammate - do the maths. To put it another way, Schumacher scored 76.5% of Ferrari's points that year.

& this is the crux ...why was Eddie so far behind? you say it was because the Ferrari was slow (it clearly wasn't in Michaels hands) & less reliable- which is true (1 mechanical DNF vs 3)

I say it was Eddie's inability to tame the F310B, again- just because a car was unruly (no idea how unruly it actually was- as we're talking about the '97 F310B) doesn't mean it wasn't fast & that Eddie crashed it - lots

that to me, is more on Eddie's ability (or lack of)

TobyTR said:

I'm thoroughly enjoying this, it's easy pickings and highly entertaining

good for you

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

good for you

'97 Italian GP where a car's speed and engine power are the main factors - Alesi on pole, McLaren-Mercs 5th and 6th, Schumacher qualified 9th and Irvine 10th. The race was won by Coulthard with Alesi 2nd. Schumacher finished 6th and Irvine 8th. "second-best car" and "fast car" apparently

F310 and F310B were designed and developed by the same personnel. Eddie couldn't have been that bad to get a Jaguar on the podium twice and Ron Dennis to consider replacing Coulthard with him...

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 1st November 11:07

[TobyTR]

mattikake said:

Different eras have different styles of driver management, and these radio messages are used to deliberately distract other teams.

But I'm confused what relevance your point has to my post and in particular to the part you highlighted - wheel-to-wheel racecraft "wow" moments?

because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.

Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM

But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.

2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements

2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements

Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.

[E34-3.2]

TobyTR said:

because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.

Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM

But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.

2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements

2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements

Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.

I think that when mentioning Hamilton v Alonso or Schumacher. The points sometime don't reflect exactly the truth.

TobyTR, you forget constantly to mentioned something in your analysis that are interesting but flawed.

Alonso and Schumacher in nearly every season they competed had a number 1 statue in their team. Something Hamilton never had. This would alter many decisions during the year and who would benefit more the number one driver in the team. Which is why comparing Hamilton to Schumacher is impossible. One had a full team behind him, the other one has only half of the garage to outperform the other half.

One thing I think worth mentioning is in 2012 Mercedes finished 5th as a constructor with Rosberg and Schumacher line up.
2013, Mercedes finished 2nd with Rosberg and Hamilton, that tells me that the newbie who took over Shumacher was a lot better at developing/racing an average car than his most experience predecessor.

[vdn]

^ Hamilton isn’t on Schumacher’s level... he’s on another level.

He’s breaking records without the poor character and stty tactics.

Even without the records and championships; this would still be true.

[TobyTR]

E34-3.2 said:

I think that when mentioning Hamilton v Alonso or Schumacher. The points sometime don't reflect exactly the truth.

TobyTR, you forget constantly to mentioned something in your analysis that are interesting but flawed.

Alonso and Schumacher in nearly every season they competed had a number 1 statue in their team. Something Hamilton never had. This would alter many decisions during the year and who would benefit more the number one driver in the team. Which is why comparing Hamilton to Schumacher is impossible. One had a full team behind him, the other one has only half of the garage to outperform the other half.

One thing I think worth mentioning is in 2012 Mercedes finished 5th as a constructor with Rosberg and Schumacher line up.
2013, Mercedes finished 2nd with Rosberg and Hamilton, that tells me that the newbie who took over Shumacher was a lot better at developing/racing an average car than his most experience predecessor.

That's a fair point. But Rosberg in 2012 scored 93pts and 1 win, in 2013 he scored 171pts and 2 wins, it was a better car for sure. Historically, Schumacher was very good at car development.

And regardless of number one/number two status, when Schumacher & Irvine were qualifying 3rd/9th and Alonso/Massa qualifying 6th/8th, the lead driver still found a way to score race wins and podiums ahead of rival teams/drivers by overtaking them and put together a WDC runner-up campaign.

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 1st November 12:42

[TobyTR]

vdn said:

^ Hamilton isn’t on Schumacher’s level... he’s on another level.

He’s breaking records without the poor character and stty tactics.

Even without the records and championships; this would still be true.

well if he is on another level to Schumacher then he would've performed similar heroics and finish runner-up in 2013. He didn't.

[DeltonaS]

37chevy said:

TobyTR said:

Ross Brawn has said in many interviews on the rare occasion when they would propose an extreme out-of-the-box strategy to Michael during a race he would say "okay" and execute it. They trusted each other implicitly

Huh you mean like Lewis at Monaco or Mexico, making tyres last longer than anyone else....yes he moans but as pointed out it’s mainly diversion tactics...

I’m sure you could quote plenty of pieces praising Lewis for the same traits, but why let that get in the way of a biased opinion ;-)

Well apart from Max obvioulsy, shall I show you the quote in the Y.Palmer interview ?

And Bias ? Chevy you're more biased than Trump praising his Golf resorts.

[vdn]

TobyTR said:

vdn said:

^ Hamilton isn’t on Schumacher’s level... he’s on another level.

He’s breaking records without the poor character and stty tactics.

Even without the records and championships; this would still be true.

well if he is on another level to Schumacher then he would've performed similar heroics and finish runner-up in 2013. He didn't.

Yes that’s the only point worth considering...

Joker.

[TobyTR]

It's a significant point if your trying to argue your favourite driver is on another level above Schumacher and yet couldn't finish runner-up in the second best car that year, or in 2011 like Button managed.