Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[RB Will]

Northernboy said:

He doesn't have to turn so much that there is a collision, though. Hamilton coud have chosen not to try to overtake there, Max could have chosen to not steer into him. Both had that choice, neither took it, which is why I agree with those who view it as nothing more than a racing incident.

Hamilton had a car width to his right that he could / should have used, verstappen had about four car widths to his left that he could / should have used.

In terms f how sensible each of them was being, I think a measured attempt to send it inside another car going into a corner is perfectly sensible. I think that turning in to where you've just seen a nother car to be is less so, and relies on the other driver doing something that you can't see them doing.

Unless max drove clear off the track to avoid there probably would have been contact anyway as Hamilton still ended up running wide and off the track on exit.
It wasn't a measured attempt at sending it up the inside, it was too much speed, massively missed the apex, clattered into another car and ran wide, how much more of a cockup can you have? For well measured see Max a cople of corners previous, wen in and held it perfectly on the inside kerb/apex giving as much room as possible, didnt run wide on exit.

I think Max was being sensible in that he initially assumed Hamilton would have backed off and turned in, realised he hadnt and was still there so steered away giving Hamilton a few car widths to work with thinking it would be enough, clearly he misjudged Hamiltons inability to make the corner.

Graveworm said:

When was the last time a driver was banned for causing a collision? There are divided opinions amongst "Impartial" experts as to whether it was even a penalty. That's not actually the analysis that shows Max having a jink in. That came post race. He doesn't say Hamilton was not making the corner.

It isn't just causing a collision that would deserve a ban, and if it was just an error of judgement that lead to Hamilton clonking him then fine, he got a penalty. If as people are suggesting it was deliberate out of frustration or to teach Max a lesson then that deserves a ban as a pre meditated deliberate collision. If you are going to do that at least do it on a low speed corner not one of the fastest on the calendar.
The analysis said Hamilton was on the wrong trajectory and understeering, and he ended up running wide regardless so there cant be any debate of if he was making the corner, he had the chance to and didn't.

[vdn]

RB Will said:

It isn't just causing a collision that would deserve a ban, and if it was just an error of judgement that lead to Hamilton clonking him then fine, he got a penalty. If as people are suggesting it was deliberate out of frustration or to teach Max a lesson then that deserves a ban as a pre meditated deliberate collision. If you are going to do that at least do it on a low speed corner not one of the fastest on the calendar.
The analysis said Hamilton was on the wrong trajectory and understeering, and he ended up running wide regardless so there cant be any debate of if he was making the corner, he had the chance to and didn't.

Thanks to Max deliberately turning in, as is shown in the analysis.

[ch37]

All the teams releasing statements condoning racism on social media, without fail, under every post, there a bunch of posts that start a bit like this...

"Racism is bad, but..."

and of course the classic...

"he's just playing the race card, I haven't seen a single racist comment online and I've been on Twitter every waking moment since the race"

Edited by ch37 on Monday 19th July 14:12

[LargeRed]

I wouldn't allow either of them to take penalties.
But it looks like sudden death now.

What do you mean that was last weeks sport. ?????? Oh we are discussing F1 not Euro'lastyear'

[Northernboy]

RB Will said:

Unless max drove clear off the track to avoid there probably would have been contact anyway as Hamilton still ended up running wide and off the track on exit.

Well no, max could have lifted.

Both drivers could have chosen to back out and not crashed, nether did. Max has done exactly the same as Hamilton did.

Verstappen's done the same move on others, no-one was upset about it, and no-one should be upset about this. Max has hopefully learned a lesson here about how he can't expect everyone to back off when they are in a fight. He needs to stop whining and pouting, and move on, if he can.

[anonymous-user]

I was literally about to post the same thing when I saw this "Marko: Hamilton ‘destroyed Albon’s career’"

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-lewis-h...

Didn't Hamilton take Albon out twice with clumsy moves when he was looking at a win/podium when he REALLY needed it?

[HustleRussell]

Joey Deacon said:

I was literally about to post the same thing when I saw this "Marko: Hamilton ‘destroyed Albon’s career’"

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-lewis-h...

Didn't Hamilton take Albon out twice with clumsy moves when he was looking at a win/podium when he REALLY needed it?

Once, In Brazil. In Austria, Albon went for an outside pass on Hamilton which he would’ve completed if he had used the space he had to the outside. Hamilton was penalised as a result IIRC but it’s not really an example of clumsy Hamilton.

[glazbagun]

RB Will said:

It isn't just causing a collision that would deserve a ban, and if it was just an error of judgement that lead to Hamilton clonking him then fine, he got a penalty. If as people are suggesting it was deliberate out of frustration or to teach Max a lesson then that deserves a ban as a pre meditated deliberate collision. If you are going to do that at least do it on a low speed corner not one of the fastest on the calendar.

It still takes two to collide. Max's defensive driving "style" has long involved forcing a driver to choose between a crash and giving up his chosen line. This time Lewis chose to stuck to his line. Can't punish Lewis for what Max always does.

It's a sign of how much has changed that this was five years ago, but is an example of what Max was up to before and never received a ban. His move on Kimi at Spa was up there with Schumi pushing Rubens into the wall IMO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37741994

Max is often an accident waiting to happen, relying on other drivers sense of self preservation to prevent overtakes, it's just this time he came off worse. I'm glad he's OK and love watching him on a charge, but any appeals to fairness from Verstappen and Horner are an unfunny joke for social media consumption IMO.

[kiseca]

Joey Deacon said:

I was literally about to post the same thing when I saw this "Marko: Hamilton ‘destroyed Albon’s career’"

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-lewis-h...

Didn't Hamilton take Albon out twice with clumsy moves when he was looking at a win/podium when he REALLY needed it?

If helmet brain really thought that, they wouldn't have fired Albon because they'd really believe his lack of success was Lewis's fault. But they don't.

[paulguitar]

kiseca said:

If helmet brain really thought that, they wouldn't have fired Albon because they'd really believe his lack of success was Lewis's fault. But they don't.

Red Bull are really hard to like because Horner and Marko both appear to be such thoroughly dodgy people.


I like Newey though.

[NRS]

RB Will said:

Northernboy said:

He doesn't have to turn so much that there is a collision, though. Hamilton coud have chosen not to try to overtake there, Max could have chosen to not steer into him. Both had that choice, neither took it, which is why I agree with those who view it as nothing more than a racing incident.

Hamilton had a car width to his right that he could / should have used, verstappen had about four car widths to his left that he could / should have used.

In terms f how sensible each of them was being, I think a measured attempt to send it inside another car going into a corner is perfectly sensible. I think that turning in to where you've just seen a nother car to be is less so, and relies on the other driver doing something that you can't see them doing.

Unless max drove clear off the track to avoid there probably would have been contact anyway as Hamilton still ended up running wide and off the track on exit.
It wasn't a measured attempt at sending it up the inside, it was too much speed, massively missed the apex, clattered into another car and ran wide, how much more of a cockup can you have? For well measured see Max a cople of corners previous, wen in and held it perfectly on the inside kerb/apex giving as much room as possible, didnt run wide on exit.

I think Max was being sensible in that he initially assumed Hamilton would have backed off and turned in, realised he hadnt and was still there so steered away giving Hamilton a few car widths to work with thinking it would be enough, clearly he misjudged Hamiltons inability to make the corner.

I posted this in the race thread - Horner's comments (and Max's driving style) shows previously that you should give up the position on the outside when someone sends it on the inside. Therefore, Max was wrong:



Horner:



Also when you say Max didn't run wide on the exit a few corners before the crash do you mean the one where 2 of his wheels cross the white line? Given it should in theory be a car's width where would the car on the outside go? Hint - the car on the outside would be slower and be behind anyway.

[ch37]

See also: Free Practice at Portimao 2020.

[MarkwG]

ch37 said:

All the teams releasing statements condoning racism on social media, without fail, under every post, there a bunch of posts that start a bit like this...

"Racism is bad, but..."

and of course the classic...

"he's just playing the race card, I haven't seen a single racist comment online and I've been on Twitter every waking moment since the race"

Edited by ch37 on Monday 19th July 14:12

Just to check - condoning or condemning...?

[RB Will]

An unbiased professional drivers view

https://youtu.be/I2fn0D2wqko

[NRS]

RB Will said:

An unbiased professional drivers view

https://youtu.be/I2fn0D2wqko

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

[Siao]

NRS said:

RB Will said:

An unbiased professional drivers view

https://youtu.be/I2fn0D2wqko

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

I'm not sure about Alonso's comments, but didn't Leclerc say that he saw it from inside the car and it is difficult to see and he is sitting so low and everything happened so fast? Basically, he was being a bit political and took no side, I don't think he had seen a replay when he made his comments

[Exige77]

NRS said:

RB Will said:

An unbiased professional drivers view

https://youtu.be/I2fn0D2wqko

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

^^^^^ Exactly this. On the inside is advantageous. If there’s a coming together, the the outside car usually suffers. The car on the outside needs to think twice and be conservative.

Hopefully invincible Max will be a bit more circumspect next time and Horner and Marko will think before opening their mouths.

[RB Will]

NRS said:

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

It may well be just a racing incident, but it was still Hamilton’s cockup.

You have to be more careful on the inside as explained like in this instance if you are the one that then cocks up you get the penalty for crashing into someone else, the one on the outside can only ruin their own race not put someone else in hospital.

As for the other bit I’m assuming it was a different sort of incident. The last few years, despite how much I’ve moaned about it, everyone else here seems to think that as you progress to the exit of a corner it is good racing to make the car on the outside go off the circuit in a controlled manner.
Max has probably learnt it from watching Hamilton do it and get away with it for years.
This isn’t what happened in this instance though. This was a car on the inside out of control and hitting the one outside, not 2 cars under control with the inside car carefully managing the situation.

[Exige77]

RB Will said:

NRS said:

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

It may well be just a racing incident, but it was still Hamilton’s cockup.

You have to be more careful on the inside as explained like in this instance if you are the one that then cocks up you get the penalty for crashing into someone else, the one on the outside can only ruin their own race not put someone else in hospital.

As for the other bit I’m assuming it was a different sort of incident. The last few years, despite how much I’ve moaned about it, everyone else here seems to think that as you progress to the exit of a corner it is good racing to make the car on the outside go off the circuit in a controlled manner.
Max has probably learnt it from watching Hamilton do it and get away with it for years.
This isn’t what happened in this instance though. This was a car on the inside out of control and hitting the one outside, not 2 cars under control with the inside car carefully managing the situation.

Penalty v Crashing at 180Mph.

Who has to be more careful ?

The outside line has always been risky in motorsport.

[Blue62]

RB Will said:

It may well be just a racing incident, but it was still Hamilton’s cockup.

You have to be more careful on the inside as explained like in this instance if you are the one that then cocks up you get the penalty for crashing into someone else, the one on the outside can only ruin their own race not put someone else in hospital.

As for the other bit I’m assuming it was a different sort of incident. The last few years, despite how much I’ve moaned about it, everyone else here seems to think that as you progress to the exit of a corner it is good racing to make the car on the outside go off the circuit in a controlled manner.
Max has probably learnt it from watching Hamilton do it and get away with it for years.
This isn’t what happened in this instance though. This was a car on the inside out of control and hitting the one outside, not 2 cars under control with the inside car carefully managing the situation.

Ever thought about becoming a race steward? You seem to have exceptional insight and a clear, unbiased perspective on things. Max will surely win the title this season and this will simply go down as another moment when two drivers pushed too hard, it happens.