Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[NRS]

RB Will said:

NRS said:

And yet much better drivers Leclerc and Alonso said it was just a racing incident.

I also don't get the whole thing about being much more conservative if you're the car on the inside - it's the car on the outside that needs to be conservative in that if the car on the inside makes a mistake you'll be taken out. It's why going round the outside is risky. You had no reply to Horner's thing about it Max doing a great job when he pushed Hamilton wide and forced him to get out of it or crash. That's exactly what we just saw now.

It may well be just a racing incident, but it was still Hamilton’s cockup.

You have to be more careful on the inside as explained like in this instance if you are the one that then cocks up you get the penalty for crashing into someone else, the one on the outside can only ruin their own race not put someone else in hospital.

As for the other bit I’m assuming it was a different sort of incident. The last few years, despite how much I’ve moaned about it, everyone else here seems to think that as you progress to the exit of a corner it is good racing to make the car on the outside go off the circuit in a controlled manner.
Max has probably learnt it from watching Hamilton do it and get away with it for years.
This isn’t what happened in this instance though. This was a car on the inside out of control and hitting the one outside, not 2 cars under control with the inside car carefully managing the situation.

Out of control? Look at the other thread - Hamilton is almost exactly placed in the same place as his quali lap. There is no rule you need to hit a certain part of the track in a corner. If you push someone so there is no space apart from them to go off it is wrong, but not when they still have loads of space on the outside and still turn in on you.

There's a very clear technique to deal with the person on the inside running you out of space (I agree Lewis has that down to an art - Max has used it lots too though) and that is to brake early on the outside, the car on the inside pushes out wide and you switch around onto the inside with a tighter line. If Hamilton was so out of control as you say he was this would have been an easy way to keep the position as Hamilton would lose time being so wide.

Just because you start on the outside it doesn't mean you just keep turning into the other car no matter what.

[nickfrog]

NRS said:

There's a very clear technique to deal with the person on the inside running you out of space (I agree Lewis has that down to an art - Max has used it lots too though) and that is to brake early on the outside, the car on the inside pushes out wide and you switch around onto the inside with a tighter line. If Hamilton was so out of control as you say he was this would have been an easy way to keep the position as Hamilton would lose time being so wide.

Exactly, a switcheroo. I see it as a 60 Ham /40 Max now where Max still had a chance to come out on top but thought that chance was by sticking to the initial turn in rather than try the switch. It almost worked. But not quite. I think the penalty was about right and the fact that Ham won the race and Max binned the car is utterly irrelevant.

Edited by nickfrog on Monday 19th July 19:02

[Northernboy]

RB Will said:

It may well be just a racing incident, but it was still Hamilton’s cockup.

Not at all. It led to him winning the race, and Max, who thought he could bully his way past, ending up in the wall.

Max has expected other drivers, even better ones, to defer to him for some reason (I'd speculate that it's because he's always been a spoiled rich boy who's never been told no), and he's just got a lesson in what happens when you try to bully a seven times world champion into backing off. If he's got the brains to learn from this (which I doubt) he'll come back stringer.

If, on the other hand, he has a lttle tantrum about the winner celebrating, and decides that the world is against him, then we may have just seen his career peak, and it'll be all downhill from here.

Time will tell, but I'm pleased that someone has treated him as they should, and not backed off.

[RB Will]

NRS said:

Out of control? Look at the other thread - Hamilton is almost exactly placed in the same place as his quali lap. There is no rule you need to hit a certain part of the track in a corner. If you push someone so there is no space apart from them to go off it is wrong, but not when they still have loads of space on the outside and still turn in on you.
….

Just because you start on the outside it doesn't mean you just keep turning into the other car no matter what.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because you guys just keep making stuff up like it is fact to suit your opinion.

I’ve put up one video from a racing driver saying he was out of control and understeering, you guys told me to look at another one where the ex F1 driver said the same, understeering into another car is the very definition of out of control.
Max didn’t turn in and squeeze Hamilton, the video you guys made me check out explicitly makes the point Max turned away from the corner and Hamilton to avoid a bloody crash!

Hamilton is nowhere near his quali line, he was running a bit wide in quali and still got his wheel on the inside / apex white line/ kerb.

He was 2 cars wide of it when he hit Max.
Compare the Cockup of the Max overtake attempt to Hamilton’s second go at it with CLC, that is how you do it.
CLC didn’t give him any more room than Max did but Hamilton stayed well to the inside, up on the kerb and they stayed miles apart.

Regarding your last bit, what is your opinion on the Hamilton Rosberg Austria incident then? That was Rosberg on the inside and Hamilton turned in on him making contact.

[CoolHands]

CLC hadn’t just run LH practically into the wall a la Michael Schumacher. So I suspect the approach angle was slightly less acute.

VER cut across into LH, and suffered. He’s not as canny as LH at racing. LH has given him 2 years of grace and now it’s coming down to the wire he is giving what VER likes to dish out every weekend.

[Graveworm]

RB Will said:

... you guys just keep making stuff up like it is fact to suit your opinion....

Hamilton is nowhere near his quali line, he was running a bit wide in quali and still got his wheel on the inside / apex white line/ kerb. ...

He was 2 cars wide of it when he hit Max.

[M5-911]

Graveworm said:

RB Will said:

... you guys just keep making stuff up like it is fact to suit your opinion....

Hamilton is nowhere near his quali line, he was running a bit wide in quali and still got his wheel on the inside / apex white line/ kerb. ...

He was 2 cars wide of it when he hit Max.

I guess he thinks a f1 is as wide as a moto go?

Brundle takes on it:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/martin-brundle-red-b...

Alonso takes on it:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-coll...

I guess those guys are a bit more experienced than that racing driver our friend is mentioning.

[HARTLEYHARE1]

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

[paulguitar]

CoolHands said:

VER cut across into LH, and suffered. He’s not as canny as LH at racing. LH has given him 2 years of grace and now it’s coming down to the wire he is giving what VER likes to dish out every weekend.

Yep, I agree. Lewis has given Max an amazing amount of room, repeatedly, and he's now drawn a line in the sand. It will be interesting to see how Max adapts to this new state of play.

[Northernboy]

HARTLEYHARE1 said:

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

Their idiot most successful racing driver in history driver?

[paulguitar]

HARTLEYHARE1 said:

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

You appear not to have read what Martin said?

[glazbagun]

RB Will said:

Regarding your last bit, what is your opinion on the Hamilton Rosberg Austria incident then? That was Rosberg on the inside and Hamilton turned in on him making contact.

This??

https://youtu.be/ixmGVL4dedI?t=105

Not the OP, but I'd say that's a 50/50 racing incident. Rosberg left it too late before he turned at all! Drivers comments seem pretty on point. Nico straightlining for too long, Lewis leaves it as late as he can before turning. He could have driven off track but why should he?

To me, Lewis/Max Copse looks more like a combination of Sainz/ Groesjean Copse (no further action taken, Sainz turns in on Grosjean racing incident)

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.no-furt...

...and Max / Ocon Brazil (Max turns in on Ocon even though he knows he's there, loses lead, Ocon 10s penalty +1 push and indignant tantrum from Max)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw

[J..]

paulguitar said:

HARTLEYHARE1 said:

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

You appear not to have read what Martin said?

I agree with Brundle too and Leclerc, Alonso, Sainz and Albon… but not various other drivers.

If roles had been reversed, I’m pretty sure Lewis would have backed out and not risked his championship lead to keep ahead.

[M5-911]

paulguitar said:

HARTLEYHARE1 said:

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

You appear not to have read what Martin said?

Martin makes complete sense indeed, not sure HARTLEYHARE1 makes any sense on that one.

[vdn]

M5-911 said:

I guess he thinks a f1 is as wide as a moto go?

Brundle takes on it:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/martin-brundle-red-b...

Alonso takes on it:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-coll...

I guess those guys are a bit more experienced than that racing driver our friend is mentioning.

Alonso's take is bang on.

But some other poster has a YouTube video of a relative nobody saying different!!! They'll be along in a minute.

[paulguitar]

J.. said:

paulguitar said:

You appear not to have read what Martin said?

I agree with Brundle too and Leclerc, Alonso, Sainz and Albon… but not various other drivers.

If roles had been reversed, I’m pretty sure Lewis would have backed out and not risked his championship lead to keep ahead.

I agree too. The crux of it is that if those positions had been reversed, Hamilton would have given room and both cars would have continued on in the race. Max had a 33 point lead, turning in was unnecessary and costly. He's brilliant, but a bit of a blunt instrument still. It will be interesting to see if he can ever quite get to Hamilton's level as an all-around performer.

[CoolHands]

Can you imagine coming up against the Verstappens in the lower formulas? He has driven like this since forever. Anyone in karting who would have crashed into him would have been mullered (bullied). So I don’t think VER will have much experience of what to do when someone doesn’t capitulate, as it’s never happened.

[glazbagun]

J.. said:

I agree with Brundle too and Leclerc, Alonso, Sainz and Albon… but not various other drivers.

If roles had been reversed, I’m pretty sure Lewis would have backed out and not risked his championship lead to keep ahead.

Like he did here, delaying his championship victory by not risking being taken out by Max:

https://youtu.be/ljDhWSUt8uE?t=260

Of course if Max were his title rival I think he'd have been more aggressive. Like when Nico had to pass him in 2016.

[CarlosFandango11]

Graveworm said:

Is there any basis for what Toto is saying?
".. there is a clear regulation... If the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.

BBC said:

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff made reference after the race to the stewards' overtaking guidelines, which he said allowed Hamilton to make the move.

These are not distributed publicly, but they have been seen by BBC Sport. They contain images of two cars on entry to a corner, and illustrate when a driver trying to pass has the right to claim it.

They state that if the driver on the inside has "a significant overlap" then "the corner is yours provided you make the corner cleanly". In the image in this illustration, the overtaking car is not even as far alongside as Hamilton was as they turned into Copse on Sunday.

From: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57882992

[Burwood]

Northernboy said:

HARTLEYHARE1 said:

Martin as usual makes complete sense

Mercedes and their idiot driver who likes 9year old children’s trainers should be ashamed

Roll on next race but let’s all be very careful what we say

Their idiot most successful racing driver in history driver?

Agreed, stupid comment.