Jensons future
Discussion
IMO Jenson knew throughout that he’d excel as an endurance racer and having enjoyed a long F1 career and ticked the F1 WDC box he was one foot out of the door.
There are quicker and more adaptable drivers especially in terms of one lap pace.
F1 as a series doesn’t seem to reward Jenson’s qualities all that much, the sheer smoothness, mechanical sympathy etc.
There are quicker and more adaptable drivers especially in terms of one lap pace.
F1 as a series doesn’t seem to reward Jenson’s qualities all that much, the sheer smoothness, mechanical sympathy etc.
paulguitar said:
A agree, he was a class act in my view, but a little way from a true great.
From a team manager's POV I would imagine he would always be very tempting to have in the team.
Totally agree.From a team manager's POV I would imagine he would always be very tempting to have in the team.
Must say 2009 was an epic season considering what was going on with Honda in 2008.
Love the fact Button won that Championship.
Honda really has not had any luck in F1 since the 80's/early 90's.
Wonder if Red Bull will be able to change that.
Kraken said:
paulguitar said:
On planet earth though, the points are added up season by season. So it's 2/1 Hamilton.
I always count is as 1/1. He had zero input into the car for the 1st season and he barely even fitted into it for the first few races.
Hamilton had the speed advantage over Button in qualifying, but Button was a more complete driver than Hamilton.
It wasn't unusual to see LH pull a couple of tenths clear of JB in low fuel qualifying. However, for a WDC, LH still was more heavily dependent on the team than Button (for strategy calls in wet/changeable conditions etc).
JB was an equal to LH in full wet conditions. I don't think I have seen anyone else harass LH so much in the wet as JB.
Wet to dry on slicks though, JB takes it.
paulguitar said:
On planet earth though, the points are added up season by season. So it's 2/1 Hamilton.
Yes and if JB was as poor as people say then it'd have been 3/0 Hamilton with a big enough points advantage even though he spent more of the first season up the back of massa than NicoleEdited by wombleh on Thursday 25th October 16:20
Edited by wombleh on Thursday 25th October 17:20
Dr Z said:
Kraken said:
paulguitar said:
On planet earth though, the points are added up season by season. So it's 2/1 Hamilton.
I always count is as 1/1. He had zero input into the car for the 1st season and he barely even fitted into it for the first few races.Hamilton had the speed advantage over Button in qualifying, but Button was a more complete driver than Hamilton.
It wasn't unusual to see LH pull a couple of tenths clear of JB in low fuel qualifying. However, for a WDC, LH still was more heavily dependent on the team than Button (for strategy calls in wet/changeable conditions etc).
JB was an equal to LH in full wet conditions. I don't think I have seen anyone else harass LH so much in the wet as JB.
Wet to dry on slicks though, JB takes it.
Lewis was quite often almost embarrassingly faster though. Was there was once a race where he was on the verge of actually lapping Jenson in equal cars/circumstances? I am pretty sure there was, also, on Jenson’s day of days, Canada 2011, Lewis was going way faster before Jenson drove him into the wall.
So an excellent, solid driver, but I don’t think Jenson would have a hope in hell against the 2018 Hamilton.
Dr Z said:
Kraken said:
paulguitar said:
On planet earth though, the points are added up season by season. So it's 2/1 Hamilton.
I always count is as 1/1. He had zero input into the car for the 1st season and he barely even fitted into it for the first few races.Hamilton had the speed advantage over Button in qualifying, but Button was a more complete driver than Hamilton.
It wasn't unusual to see LH pull a couple of tenths clear of JB in low fuel qualifying. However, for a WDC, LH still was more heavily dependent on the team than Button (for strategy calls in wet/changeable conditions etc).
JB was an equal to LH in full wet conditions. I don't think I have seen anyone else harass LH so much in the wet as JB.
Wet to dry on slicks though, JB takes it.
London424 said:
Dr Z said:
Kraken said:
paulguitar said:
On planet earth though, the points are added up season by season. So it's 2/1 Hamilton.
I always count is as 1/1. He had zero input into the car for the 1st season and he barely even fitted into it for the first few races.Hamilton had the speed advantage over Button in qualifying, but Button was a more complete driver than Hamilton.
It wasn't unusual to see LH pull a couple of tenths clear of JB in low fuel qualifying. However, for a WDC, LH still was more heavily dependent on the team than Button (for strategy calls in wet/changeable conditions etc).
JB was an equal to LH in full wet conditions. I don't think I have seen anyone else harass LH so much in the wet as JB.
Wet to dry on slicks though, JB takes it.
Someone correct me but prior to JB's first win in Hungary 2006 JB was pretty much on par with Alonso or was he quicker than Alonso before his DNF?
2004 US Grand Prix - rain shower mid-race and in the wet to drying conditions JB was lapping quicker than Schumi!
2000 German GP - late race rain shower and was lapping as quick as the leaders and IIRC was on course for podium until the track dried.
paulguitar said:
Jenson was indeed very solid, and back then Hamilton was more prone to errors than now. The way I saw it was that Hamilton was more gifted, but rather mercurial in those days, whereas Jenson accepted his limitations and made the best of what he had, and nearly always maximized results. This is all relative, of course, I do understand that Button is also immensely talented!
Lewis was quite often almost embarrassingly faster though. Was there was once a race where he was on the verge of actually lapping Jenson in equal cars/circumstances? I am pretty sure there was, also, on Jenson’s day of days, Canada 2011, Lewis was going way faster before Jenson drove him into the wall.
So an excellent, solid driver, but I don’t think Jenson would have a hope in hell against the 2018 Hamilton.
Why would Button have no hope in hell against Hamilton in 2018?Lewis was quite often almost embarrassingly faster though. Was there was once a race where he was on the verge of actually lapping Jenson in equal cars/circumstances? I am pretty sure there was, also, on Jenson’s day of days, Canada 2011, Lewis was going way faster before Jenson drove him into the wall.
So an excellent, solid driver, but I don’t think Jenson would have a hope in hell against the 2018 Hamilton.
Hamilton is in a very comfortable place at Mercedes with a clear number 2 driver helping him.
That helps Hamilton mentally.
You can't judge Button on his time at McLaren when the car was completely useless.
He was still a very talented driver and no doubt would give any driver issues if the car was good.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Why would Button have no hope in hell against Hamilton in 2018?
Because Hamilton had a clear pace advantage over Button, and now he has pretty much eradicated the occasional mistakes he used to make. Put simply, he is now the complete F1 driver. Jenson is often referred to as a driver who ‘on his day’ was unbeatable. I think that’s true, ‘on his day’, when everything was perfect, the car was to his liking, he was amazing. The truth is though that great champions are great champions because they also deliver when it is ’not their day’. Far too many times when the car was not quite right, Jenson was absolutely nowhere. There was about half a season when Lewis and Jenson were teammates where Jenson most weekends described the car us ‘undriveable', whilst Lewis was competing upfront with it.
paulguitar said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Why would Button have no hope in hell against Hamilton in 2018?
Because Hamilton had a clear pace advantage over Button, and now he has pretty much eradicated the occasional mistakes he used to make. Put simply, he is now the complete F1 driver. Jenson is often referred to as a driver who ‘on his day’ was unbeatable. I think that’s true, ‘on his day’, when everything was perfect, the car was to his liking, he was amazing. The truth is though that great champions are great champions because they also deliver when it is ’not their day’. Far too many times when the car was not quite right, Jenson was absolutely nowhere. There was about half a season when Lewis and Jenson were teammates where Jenson most weekends described the car us ‘undriveable', whilst Lewis was competing upfront with it.
paulguitar said:
Because Hamilton had a clear pace advantage over Button, and now he has pretty much eradicated the occasional mistakes he used to make. Put simply, he is now the complete F1 driver.
Jenson is often referred to as a driver who ‘on his day’ was unbeatable. I think that’s true, ‘on his day’, when everything was perfect, the car was to his liking, he was amazing. The truth is though that great champions are great champions because they also deliver when it is ’not their day’. Far too many times when the car was not quite right, Jenson was absolutely nowhere. There was about half a season when Lewis and Jenson were teammates where Jenson most weekends described the car us ‘undriveable', whilst Lewis was competing upfront with it.
That aligns with what I was told. Jenson is often referred to as a driver who ‘on his day’ was unbeatable. I think that’s true, ‘on his day’, when everything was perfect, the car was to his liking, he was amazing. The truth is though that great champions are great champions because they also deliver when it is ’not their day’. Far too many times when the car was not quite right, Jenson was absolutely nowhere. There was about half a season when Lewis and Jenson were teammates where Jenson most weekends described the car us ‘undriveable', whilst Lewis was competing upfront with it.
paulguitar said:
There was about half a season when Lewis and Jenson were teammates where Jenson most weekends described the car us ‘undriveable', whilst Lewis was competing upfront with it.
Lewis can just drive a car whilst many other drivers have to have the car perfect to drive well.I was told many years ago that a test he undertook - they set the car up badly to see what happened. The drivers were all coming back and complaining the car had no balance and could not be driven without sliding about. Lewis drove the fastest lap and they asked did he have any problems with it and he said "No it was ok"..
Jasandjules said:
Lewis can just drive a car whilst many other drivers have to have the car perfect to drive well.
I was told many years ago that a test he undertook - they set the car up badly to see what happened. The drivers were all coming back and complaining the car had no balance and could not be driven without sliding about. Lewis drove the fastest lap and they asked did he have any problems with it and he said "No it was ok"..
I used to be quite cynical on Lewis, especially in his off year with Massa and the politics at McLaren, but I must confess to be in awe of his matured talents. He is just on a different level at the moment.I was told many years ago that a test he undertook - they set the car up badly to see what happened. The drivers were all coming back and complaining the car had no balance and could not be driven without sliding about. Lewis drove the fastest lap and they asked did he have any problems with it and he said "No it was ok"..
Jasandjules said:
Lewis can just drive a car whilst many other drivers have to have the car perfect to drive well.
I was told many years ago that a test he undertook - they set the car up badly to see what happened. The drivers were all coming back and complaining the car had no balance and could not be driven without sliding about. Lewis drove the fastest lap and they asked did he have any problems with it and he said "No it was ok"..
The latter sounds like a tall tale, he may well have done a good time but you'd hope he would come back and tell them how the setup needed tweaking.I was told many years ago that a test he undertook - they set the car up badly to see what happened. The drivers were all coming back and complaining the car had no balance and could not be driven without sliding about. Lewis drove the fastest lap and they asked did he have any problems with it and he said "No it was ok"..
JB has described his driving as heavily based on feel which is why he is so good in marginal conditions, but also why he struggles if the car setup isn't to his suiting.
paulguitar said:
Jenson was indeed very solid, and back then Hamilton was more prone to errors than now. The way I saw it was that Hamilton was more gifted, but rather mercurial in those days, whereas Jenson accepted his limitations and made the best of what he had, and nearly always maximized results. This is all relative, of course, I do understand that Button is also immensely talented!
Lewis was quite often almost embarrassingly faster though. Was there was once a race where he was on the verge of actually lapping Jenson in equal cars/circumstances? I am pretty sure there was, also, on Jenson’s day of days, Canada 2011, Lewis was going way faster before Jenson drove him into the wall.
So an excellent, solid driver, but I don’t think Jenson would have a hope in hell against the 2018 Hamilton.
Was it not Hamilton that drove into button rather than button driving into Hamilton?Lewis was quite often almost embarrassingly faster though. Was there was once a race where he was on the verge of actually lapping Jenson in equal cars/circumstances? I am pretty sure there was, also, on Jenson’s day of days, Canada 2011, Lewis was going way faster before Jenson drove him into the wall.
So an excellent, solid driver, but I don’t think Jenson would have a hope in hell against the 2018 Hamilton.
But his 2011 Canada was cracking and his race at spa was seriously dominant! I’m a jb fan through and through and would love to see a return! I think he fell out of love when McLaren alledgedly treated him crap and signed vandoorne! As soon as that happened he just couldn’t be bothered for the rest of the season
ghost83 said:
Was it not Hamilton that drove into button rather than button driving into Hamilton?
You're not going to get an objective view on that from a Hamilton fan nor probably a JB one ...JB took the normal racing line and LH tried to pass through a shrinking gap. Stewards said At the point of contact Button had not yet moved as far to the left of the track as he had on the previous lap, or that Schumacher had on that lap.
ghost83 said:
Was it not Hamilton that drove into button rather than button driving into Hamilton?
But his 2011 Canada was cracking and his race at spa was seriously dominant! I’m a jb fan through and through and would love to see a return!
Opinions differ of course! I looked at it many times and my reading of it was that Jens put Lewis into the wall…But his 2011 Canada was cracking and his race at spa was seriously dominant! I’m a jb fan through and through and would love to see a return!
I’d like to see him back in F1. I had not really thought about it actually until posting on this thread, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea.
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