The Official USA Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
rdjohn said:
Bizarre, why not? Too exciting can be the only answer.
The simplest way to level the playing field is success ballast; say up to 60kg in 5 kg increments; lose the ballast at 5kg per place after top 3 placings. That would bring the top 10 together in just a few races. Creating cars that can carry the extra weight would be an interesting engineering study, substituting mechanical grip for aero.
I would also regulate a genuine flat floor - all aero needs to be visible to fans and the other teams, so that they can quickly catch up.
The only thing that might prevent that is constructor points, so award an extra constructor point for every 10kg carried. That way we may find out who the best driver is and which constructor is most versatile with their concepts. Good drivers will be in greater demand than drivers with a budget to pay for even more CFD engineers.
On top of these regs, I would have at least 2 mandatory 10 sec pit stops on the grounds of safety, with only 10 guys to do it (2 jacks and 2 per corner) durable tyres would ensure that drivers can at least try to stay on the tail of the car in front, rather than having to continually back-off like Mark did yesterday.
Racing needs to be close and passing needs to be difficult, not waiting for a car braking early to save fuel, so just stand on the brakes late for an easy pass. Finesse and subtlety of driving needs to be paramount to justify the title WORLD DRIVER CHAMPIONSHIP.
I want to make clear that I do believe that SV and RB are very worthy winners given the controlling parameters, it is just that the wins are largely technical and strategic, rather than primarily driver influenced. That is why yesterday even SV acknowledged that "it might not always be like this."
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
Sounds like the artificial nature of BTCC.The simplest way to level the playing field is success ballast; say up to 60kg in 5 kg increments; lose the ballast at 5kg per place after top 3 placings. That would bring the top 10 together in just a few races. Creating cars that can carry the extra weight would be an interesting engineering study, substituting mechanical grip for aero.
I would also regulate a genuine flat floor - all aero needs to be visible to fans and the other teams, so that they can quickly catch up.
The only thing that might prevent that is constructor points, so award an extra constructor point for every 10kg carried. That way we may find out who the best driver is and which constructor is most versatile with their concepts. Good drivers will be in greater demand than drivers with a budget to pay for even more CFD engineers.
On top of these regs, I would have at least 2 mandatory 10 sec pit stops on the grounds of safety, with only 10 guys to do it (2 jacks and 2 per corner) durable tyres would ensure that drivers can at least try to stay on the tail of the car in front, rather than having to continually back-off like Mark did yesterday.
Racing needs to be close and passing needs to be difficult, not waiting for a car braking early to save fuel, so just stand on the brakes late for an easy pass. Finesse and subtlety of driving needs to be paramount to justify the title WORLD DRIVER CHAMPIONSHIP.
I want to make clear that I do believe that SV and RB are very worthy winners given the controlling parameters, it is just that the wins are largely technical and strategic, rather than primarily driver influenced. That is why yesterday even SV acknowledged that "it might not always be like this."
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
Thank god that has such an amazing following and heavy investment from manufacturers.
rdjohn said:
On top of these regs, I would have at least 2 mandatory 10 sec pit stops on the grounds of safety, with only 10 guys to do it (2 jacks and 2 per corner)
I couldn't disagree more. I find a F1 pit stop a thing of choreographed beauty and applaud the fact that, so far, F1 has escaped the maximum personnel limits that so many other series have adopted. rdjohn said:
Eric Mc said:
I for one don't want F1 sprints between pit stops.
Bizarre, why not? Too exciting can be the only answer.Oh... wait.
rdjohn said:
Bizarre, why not? Too exciting can be the only answer.
The simplest way to level the playing field is success ballast; say up to 60kg in 5 kg increments; lose the ballast at 5kg per place after top 3 placings. That would bring the top 10 together in just a few races. Creating cars that can carry the extra weight would be an interesting engineering study, substituting mechanical grip for aero.
I would also regulate a genuine flat floor - all aero needs to be visible to fans and the other teams, so that they can quickly catch up.
The only thing that might prevent that is constructor points, so award an extra constructor point for every 10kg carried. That way we may find out who the best driver is and which constructor is most versatile with their concepts. Good drivers will be in greater demand than drivers with a budget to pay for even more CFD engineers.
On top of these regs, I would have at least 2 mandatory 10 sec pit stops on the grounds of safety, with only 10 guys to do it (2 jacks and 2 per corner) durable tyres would ensure that drivers can at least try to stay on the tail of the car in front, rather than having to continually back-off like Mark did yesterday.
Racing needs to be close and passing needs to be difficult, not waiting for a car braking early to save fuel, so just stand on the brakes late for an easy pass. Finesse and subtlety of driving needs to be paramount to justify the title WORLD DRIVER CHAMPIONSHIP.
I want to make clear that I do believe that SV and RB are very worthy winners given the controlling parameters, it is just that the wins are largely technical and strategic, rather than primarily driver influenced. That is why yesterday even SV acknowledged that "it might not always be like this."
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
Lordy! One contrivance out, then the mother of all contrivances in. Haven't we got enough people complaining about artificial things to 'spice up' racing? The simplest way to level the playing field is success ballast; say up to 60kg in 5 kg increments; lose the ballast at 5kg per place after top 3 placings. That would bring the top 10 together in just a few races. Creating cars that can carry the extra weight would be an interesting engineering study, substituting mechanical grip for aero.
I would also regulate a genuine flat floor - all aero needs to be visible to fans and the other teams, so that they can quickly catch up.
The only thing that might prevent that is constructor points, so award an extra constructor point for every 10kg carried. That way we may find out who the best driver is and which constructor is most versatile with their concepts. Good drivers will be in greater demand than drivers with a budget to pay for even more CFD engineers.
On top of these regs, I would have at least 2 mandatory 10 sec pit stops on the grounds of safety, with only 10 guys to do it (2 jacks and 2 per corner) durable tyres would ensure that drivers can at least try to stay on the tail of the car in front, rather than having to continually back-off like Mark did yesterday.
Racing needs to be close and passing needs to be difficult, not waiting for a car braking early to save fuel, so just stand on the brakes late for an easy pass. Finesse and subtlety of driving needs to be paramount to justify the title WORLD DRIVER CHAMPIONSHIP.
I want to make clear that I do believe that SV and RB are very worthy winners given the controlling parameters, it is just that the wins are largely technical and strategic, rather than primarily driver influenced. That is why yesterday even SV acknowledged that "it might not always be like this."
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
RYH64E said:
Eric Mc said:
He agrees with me. He says he is driving as flat out AS HE CAN.
This is what he actually said:Vettel said:
You never push to the limit but you do what you can to achieve the best race time you can.
He's not agreeing with you. He is not driving as fast as he can, and he is not driving as fast as the tyres allow him to. There is bags of performance remaining in the Pirellis, but for a very short time, and so he drives only to a limit point just before the tyre begins to overheat. In 2007/2008 the tyres lasted a long time, but the small fuel tanks forced them to stop.
ash73 said:
It's already been pointed out many times before there is a fundamental difference between managing fuel/reliability and managing tyres, but nobody ever bloody listens on the internet do they... *ERIC*?
In the 60's they had robust tyres and could push flat-out under braking and in corners for the whole race, but they had to conserve fuel/engine reliability on the straights. What we have now is the exact opposite, they can push hard on the straights and have to pootle around corners, or the tyres disintegrate.
It has NOT been like this in the past, that is just a complete misunderstanding of the types of conservation and the impact on the spectacle.
Agree. Us spectators can't really tell if a car is being driven at 90% or 100% in a straight line, but we can tell in the corners.In the 60's they had robust tyres and could push flat-out under braking and in corners for the whole race, but they had to conserve fuel/engine reliability on the straights. What we have now is the exact opposite, they can push hard on the straights and have to pootle around corners, or the tyres disintegrate.
It has NOT been like this in the past, that is just a complete misunderstanding of the types of conservation and the impact on the spectacle.
I watched the 2007 US GP on Sky Sports Classic on Sunday morning. In many ways, it wasn't a great race - I don't think the top four changed throughout, but Hamilton and Alonso were 'on it' every lap, just like they were at Monaco a couple of races before (before they were told to cool it). There may not have been overtaking, but the drivers were not driving at SIX seconds off the pace.
The tyre management nonsense has just gone too far IMO. Obviously it is always going to be part of racing but when you hear the teams consistently on the radio to slow their drivers down (tyre wear) things have gone too far.
The one stop strategy completely ruined last weekends race.... nobody appeared to be pushing at any point during the race. Even Webber with the far superior car, nearly 1 sec a lap faster, was not able to put any sustained pressure on Grosjean because his tyres would have fallen apart (they did anyway as it happens).
Anyone else sick of hearing about this Lotus deal that is just about to happen? I think it is quite likely no cash will ever appear.... they will be forced to sign Maldonado and will probably have Kimi suing them for his unpaid wages half way through next season.
The one stop strategy completely ruined last weekends race.... nobody appeared to be pushing at any point during the race. Even Webber with the far superior car, nearly 1 sec a lap faster, was not able to put any sustained pressure on Grosjean because his tyres would have fallen apart (they did anyway as it happens).
Anyone else sick of hearing about this Lotus deal that is just about to happen? I think it is quite likely no cash will ever appear.... they will be forced to sign Maldonado and will probably have Kimi suing them for his unpaid wages half way through next season.
rdjohn said:
Bizarre, why not? Too exciting can be the only answer.
Because for short period in F1 (late 1990s early 2000s) we had just that and the "racing" was not good with far too much "overtaking" performed in the pits.The technical regulations were changed to try and stop this as pit overtakes were perceived as damaging the sport - which they were.
Whatever the solutions are, they are all going to be "technical" and perceived to be "artificial".
However, I have yet to see a technical regulation that is "natural".
I always thought the answer was rather simple.
Decrease the size of the wings. They don't have to be tiny, just smaller. There's enough money floating around F1, I'm sure the sponsors will get over it, especially if more people start watching. And lets face it, not much can be seen on todays wings because of the multi-elements.
Secondly, increase the size, grip levels and life span of the tyres.
Fuel pit stops could be optional. Run a full tank and be heavy at the beginning but don't need to stop or scamper off with a light load and stop for fuel later. Some people enjoy the pit stops and the "will he make it out infront?" scenario.
Just my two penny'orth.
Decrease the size of the wings. They don't have to be tiny, just smaller. There's enough money floating around F1, I'm sure the sponsors will get over it, especially if more people start watching. And lets face it, not much can be seen on todays wings because of the multi-elements.
Secondly, increase the size, grip levels and life span of the tyres.
Fuel pit stops could be optional. Run a full tank and be heavy at the beginning but don't need to stop or scamper off with a light load and stop for fuel later. Some people enjoy the pit stops and the "will he make it out infront?" scenario.
Just my two penny'orth.
RichB said:
the other me said:
Nothing against Vettel, think he is a great guy & a great driver, but truly truly hope the new regs shake things up a bit next year. Lived through the Schumi era & this is all becoming a bit "deja vu".
My recollection is that Schumacher had to fight more often for his victories. There's no doubt that he dominated that era but you would see battles with Hill and then Villeneuve and Häkkinen whereas I see Vettel driving off into the distance.You're also ignoring how close 2010 and 2012 were. Vettel won both those titles at the last race. In 2010 he never led the WDC before the last race. In 2012 he came from the back of the field in Brazil to take the title - hardly walkovers.
oyster said:
RichB said:
the other me said:
Nothing against Vettel, think he is a great guy & a great driver, but truly truly hope the new regs shake things up a bit next year. Lived through the Schumi era & this is all becoming a bit "deja vu".
My recollection is that Schumacher had to fight more often for his victories. There's no doubt that he dominated that era but you would see battles with Hill and then Villeneuve and Häkkinen whereas I see Vettel driving off into the distance.You're also ignoring how close 2010 and 2012 were. Vettel won both those titles at the last race. In 2010 he never led the WDC before the last race. In 2012 he came from the back of the field in Brazil to take the title - hardly walkovers.
h and moan longblackcoat said:
I used to love seeing the closing stages a few years back. You'd have somone running low on fuel and tyres who was 15 seconds ahead, and someone who'd done an extra stop, was running fresh tyres and with plenty of fuel......the pursuer would be right up the gearbox of the guy ahead, and pressuring on every corner.
You just cannot do that now - even a couple of laps of close running seems to damamge the tyres, so you see drivers sitting back and then using KERS/DRS to overtake, which is a good deal less of a test of skill.
It's easy to say that things aren't as good as in the old days, but I found myself yesterday thinking that I simply couldn't be bothered to watch the highlights packagae as (a) Fingers was obviously going to win by miles (b) the finishing order (absent crashes or mechanicals) was going to be largely the same as the starting order.
Just couldn't be bothered to watch.
This post sums up why I find all this talk of boring F1 to be hot air.You just cannot do that now - even a couple of laps of close running seems to damamge the tyres, so you see drivers sitting back and then using KERS/DRS to overtake, which is a good deal less of a test of skill.
It's easy to say that things aren't as good as in the old days, but I found myself yesterday thinking that I simply couldn't be bothered to watch the highlights packagae as (a) Fingers was obviously going to win by miles (b) the finishing order (absent crashes or mechanicals) was going to be largely the same as the starting order.
Just couldn't be bothered to watch.
It compeltely contradicts those who say F1 is boring because of being a race of attrition.
And you moan about DRS then go on to say people are finishing in their starting positions!!!
oyster said:
longblackcoat said:
I used to love seeing the closing stages a few years back. You'd have somone running low on fuel and tyres who was 15 seconds ahead, and someone who'd done an extra stop, was running fresh tyres and with plenty of fuel......the pursuer would be right up the gearbox of the guy ahead, and pressuring on every corner.
You just cannot do that now - even a couple of laps of close running seems to damamge the tyres, so you see drivers sitting back and then using KERS/DRS to overtake, which is a good deal less of a test of skill.
It's easy to say that things aren't as good as in the old days, but I found myself yesterday thinking that I simply couldn't be bothered to watch the highlights packagae as (a) Fingers was obviously going to win by miles (b) the finishing order (absent crashes or mechanicals) was going to be largely the same as the starting order.
Just couldn't be bothered to watch.
This post sums up why I find all this talk of boring F1 to be hot air.You just cannot do that now - even a couple of laps of close running seems to damamge the tyres, so you see drivers sitting back and then using KERS/DRS to overtake, which is a good deal less of a test of skill.
It's easy to say that things aren't as good as in the old days, but I found myself yesterday thinking that I simply couldn't be bothered to watch the highlights packagae as (a) Fingers was obviously going to win by miles (b) the finishing order (absent crashes or mechanicals) was going to be largely the same as the starting order.
Just couldn't be bothered to watch.
It compeltely contradicts those who say F1 is boring because of being a race of attrition.
And you moan about DRS then go on to say people are finishing in their starting positions!!!
VolvoT5 said:
The tyre management nonsense has just gone too far IMO. Obviously it is always going to be part of racing but when you hear the teams consistently on the radio to slow their drivers down (tyre wear) things have gone too far.
The one stop strategy completely ruined last weekends race.... nobody appeared to be pushing at any point during the race. Even Webber with the far superior car, nearly 1 sec a lap faster, was not able to put any sustained pressure on Grosjean because his tyres would have fallen apart (they did anyway as it happens).
I dunno what race you was watching but a lot of drivers were pushing at the last stint. The first stint was boring as everyone made sure they were on a one stopper.The one stop strategy completely ruined last weekends race.... nobody appeared to be pushing at any point during the race. Even Webber with the far superior car, nearly 1 sec a lap faster, was not able to put any sustained pressure on Grosjean because his tyres would have fallen apart (they did anyway as it happens).
Vettel - as per usual when tyres allow - was bored out of his brains leading easily that he set fastest laps and Rocky constantly told him to slow down.
Bottas was pushing, Alonso was pushing, Hulk was pushing.
Personally I don't think Webber was a second quicker than Grosjean.
entropy said:
I dunno what race you was watching but a lot of drivers were pushing at the last stint. The first stint was boring as everyone made sure they were on a one stopper.
Vettel - as per usual when tyres allow - was bored out of his brains leading easily that he set fastest laps and Rocky constantly told him to slow down.
Bottas was pushing, Alonso was pushing, Hulk was pushing.
Personally I don't think Webber was a second quicker than Grosjean.
I doubt that Vettel would have got stuck behind Grosjean had he been in a similar situation.Vettel - as per usual when tyres allow - was bored out of his brains leading easily that he set fastest laps and Rocky constantly told him to slow down.
Bottas was pushing, Alonso was pushing, Hulk was pushing.
Personally I don't think Webber was a second quicker than Grosjean.
I like Webber but he consistently makes poor grid starts and isn't nearly as effective as Vettel at leveraging the advantage of the car over the opposition.
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