Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[C70R]

sly fox said:

Not a massive Hamilton fan at all here - so for some balance i'll put down what i don't like about him rather than all this gushing.

1 Clearly great at PR. There are many angles to this and a few current drivers/ ex drivers have made this comment in the past year or so- he's great at using PR to his advantage.

2. Fake radio messages/ psychology used against other drivers. It's pathetic.

3. Whinging. Oh the whinging. The amount of times he tells us the tyres are shot/gone/dead and then puts in a fastest lap 2 minutes later. Could be related to point (2).

4. All this BLM/ Race for change/ LBGT bullst. How many more POC are we seeing in teams, pits or on the grid after a year or so of this campaign? I'd argue Zero. It's an Instagram /Social media content filler and nothing more. I know it's not going to be an overnight change but it's been 2 full seasons now. Wearing LGBT coloured helmets changes nothing.

5. Like many periods in F1 history, we have had drivers who win championships where a technical dominance has been significant. Like Ferrari/Schumacher, Lewis and Mercedes have won several championships with no real competition. Yes he has won 7 WC's, but i don't feel like they were great seasons or real challenges. But boy does he mention this fact at the drop of a (manufacturer sponsored) hat.

It's a real shame that to me (and possibly other F1 fans) that these things detract from Lewis as a true great F1 driver. He's definitely not the greatest.
[i]
In my view, he's got the speed, talent and drive to rival (and arguably surpass) any driver in F1 history [/i] yet these personal characteristics for me stop him being a class act.

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR".
2. He plays mind-games on team radio.
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes.
4. He's in a dominant car.

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male.

[sly fox]

paulguitar said:

His behaviour yesterday, having been robbed of the race and title, was exemplary. He pretty much defines a 'class act'.

See point one re PR. Call me cynical but he can appear to be gracious in defeat for the cameras when he needs to be.

Did you hear the F1 TV comments he made about Max and race fixing etc that were not broadcast on regular TV? Not such a class act when you hear those.

[paulguitar]

sly fox said:

paulguitar said:

His behaviour yesterday, having been robbed of the race and title, was exemplary. He pretty much defines a 'class act'.

See point one re PR. Call me cynical but he can appear to be gracious in defeat for the cameras when he needs to be.

Did you hear the F1 TV comments he made about Max and race fixing etc that were not broadcast on regular TV? Not such a class act when you hear those.

It was manipulated, clearly. He showed extraordinary class yesterday. It's hard to even imagine the way he must have been feeling.

[Dblue]

C70R said:

sly fox said:

Not a massive Hamilton fan at all here - so for some balance i'll put down what i don't like about him rather than all this gushing.

1 Clearly great at PR. There are many angles to this and a few current drivers/ ex drivers have made this comment in the past year or so- he's great at using PR to his advantage.

2. Fake radio messages/ psychology used against other drivers. It's pathetic.

3. Whinging. Oh the whinging. The amount of times he tells us the tyres are shot/gone/dead and then puts in a fastest lap 2 minutes later. Could be related to point (2).

4. All this BLM/ Race for change/ LBGT bullst. How many more POC are we seeing in teams, pits or on the grid after a year or so of this campaign? I'd argue Zero. It's an Instagram /Social media content filler and nothing more. I know it's not going to be an overnight change but it's been 2 full seasons now. Wearing LGBT coloured helmets changes nothing.

5. Like many periods in F1 history, we have had drivers who win championships where a technical dominance has been significant. Like Ferrari/Schumacher, Lewis and Mercedes have won several championships with no real competition. Yes he has won 7 WC's, but i don't feel like they were great seasons or real challenges. But boy does he mention this fact at the drop of a (manufacturer sponsored) hat.

It's a real shame that to me (and possibly other F1 fans) that these things detract from Lewis as a true great F1 driver. He's definitely not the greatest.
[i]
In my view, he's got the speed, talent and drive to rival (and arguably surpass) any driver in F1 history [/i] yet these personal characteristics for me stop him being a class act.

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR".
2. He plays mind-games on team radio.
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes.
4. He's in a dominant car.

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male.

Have to agree - I think he's a credit to himself, and to his upbringing, and to the country to be honest. And I say that as a straight, white , middle-aged male.

[sly fox]

C70R said:

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR". to his detriment, yes. Look at how Vettel has acted this year compared to Lewis. You can be classy without needing to win millions of new followers on SM
2. He plays mind-games on team radio. cheapens his wins when he's been in a car of clear technical dominance for so long- why do this as well?
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes. see point one
4. He's in a dominant car. which again to my point demonstrates that he is not one the greats, but the Mercedes car has been

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male. what has my age/ colour of skin have anything to do with this other than in your head?

Read the entire thread - it's like you are all his direct family at times. Just an opposing set of views.

[vdn]

sly fox said:

Not a massive Hamilton fan at all here - so for some balance i'll put down what i don't like about him rather than all this gushing.

1 Clearly great at PR. There are many angles to this and a few current drivers/ ex drivers have made this comment in the past year or so- he's great at using PR to his advantage.

2. Fake radio messages/ psychology used against other drivers. It's pathetic.

3. Whinging. Oh the whinging. The amount of times he tells us the tyres are shot/gone/dead and then puts in a fastest lap 2 minutes later. Could be related to point (2).

4. All this BLM/ Race for change/ LBGT bullst. How many more POC are we seeing in teams, pits or on the grid after a year or so of this campaign? I'd argue Zero. It's an Instagram /Social media content filler and nothing more. I know it's not going to be an overnight change but it's been 2 full seasons now. Wearing LGBT coloured helmets changes nothing.

5. Like many periods in F1 history, we have had drivers who win championships where a technical dominance has been significant. Like Ferrari/Schumacher, Lewis and Mercedes have won several championships with no real competition. Yes he has won 7 WC's, but i don't feel like they were great seasons or real challenges. But boy does he mention this fact at the drop of a (manufacturer sponsored) hat.

It's a real shame that to me (and possibly other F1 fans) that these things detract from Lewis as a true great F1 driver. He's definitely not the greatest.

In my view, he's got the speed, talent and drive to rival (and arguably surpass) any driver in F1 history yet these personal characteristics for me stop him being a class act.

Edited by sly fox on Monday 13th December 11:43

The snowflake is strong in this one!

[C70R]

sly fox said:

C70R said:

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR". to his detriment, yes. Look at how Vettel has acted this year compared to Lewis. You can be classy without needing to win millions of new followers on SM
2. He plays mind-games on team radio. cheapens his wins when he's been in a car of clear technical dominance for so long- why do this as well?
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes. see point one
4. He's in a dominant car. which again to my point demonstrates that he is not one the greats, but the Mercedes car has been

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male. what has my age/ colour of skin have anything to do with this other than in your head?

Read the entire thread - it's like you are all his direct family at times. Just an opposing set of views.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread yourself, in that case.

I'm no Hamilton super-fan, but I recognise b*llocks when I read it.

[nickfrog]

sly fox said:

See point one re PR. Call me cynical but he can appear to be gracious in defeat for the cameras when he needs to be.

So damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. You're funny.

[NRS]

sly fox said:

paulguitar said:

His behaviour yesterday, having been robbed of the race and title, was exemplary. He pretty much defines a 'class act'.

See point one re PR. Call me cynical but he can appear to be gracious in defeat for the cameras when he needs to be.

Did you hear the F1 TV comments he made about Max and race fixing etc that were not broadcast on regular TV? Not such a class act when you hear those.

Did you hear Max saying the same earlier in the race? He also said the same about the last race too, that he was being picked on.

Do you have an issue with Vettel, who does the rainbow stuff, helping girls get into the sport etc?

I never understand this whole ignoring what Max says and pick up on what Lewis says. I called out Toto's crappy comments about not calling a safety car during the VSC, same as I call Horner's ones out.

[NRS]

In addition, yesterday Newey said the RB was the better car this year - so do you write off this season of Max because he had the better car - as declared by one of the world's experts on that sort of thing?

[mooseracer]

usn90 said:

Anyone else get the impression we have just watched Lewis’s final f1 race?

When he was being interviewed and asked about next year he said "we'll see". I expect and hope that he's woken up today and is now thinking "yes, absolutely I'm going for number 8 next year"

[C70R]

NRS said:

sly fox said:

paulguitar said:

His behaviour yesterday, having been robbed of the race and title, was exemplary. He pretty much defines a 'class act'.

See point one re PR. Call me cynical but he can appear to be gracious in defeat for the cameras when he needs to be.

Did you hear the F1 TV comments he made about Max and race fixing etc that were not broadcast on regular TV? Not such a class act when you hear those.

Did you hear Max saying the same earlier in the race? He also said the same about the last race too, that he was being picked on.

Do you have an issue with Vettel, who does the rainbow stuff, helping girls get into the sport etc?

I never understand this whole ignoring what Max says and pick up on what Lewis says. I called out Toto's crappy comments about not calling a safety car during the VSC, same as I call Horner's ones out.

Should we slam Max for making 50% more posts on his Instagram account than Lewis?

Should we moan about Jenson Button using his Instagram account to flog ski gear that he gets a kickback from?

No, let's just moan about Lewis using us to show us things that interest him and to highlight minority causes.

Some people can't even put together a biased argument without looking dense.

[RB Will]

As someone that isn't a fan of Hamilton even I feel bad for him the way that ended, but I do feel the most deserving driver won the championship.

Hamilton was all over the place at the start of the season making mistakes in every race. And all the points taken off Max / gained by Hamilton out of Max's control (Baku, Silverstone, Hungry, possibly Spa, Imola), this season could have been over races ago. Bottas has helped out significantly here, if it were not for him then The championship would have been done a race ago.

Feel we were a bit robbed from the start in this last race with Hamilton going all Mario kart again and just skipping the chicane and getting a massive advantage, off out of DRS range. He may well have been quicker and got back by a lap or so later anyway but at least the lead will have been earned then and we would have had a much more interesting part of the race with Hamilton trying to get by, maybe Perez could have been involved then too.

[C70R]

RB Will said:

Feel we were a bit robbed from the start in this last race with Hamilton going all Mario kart again and just skipping the chicane and getting a massive advantage, off out of DRS range. He may well have been quicker and got back by a lap or so later anyway but at least the lead will have been earned then and we would have had a much more interesting part of the race with Hamilton trying to get by, maybe Perez could have been involved then too.

This is just a very silly take. Even as someone who isn't a Hamilton 'fan' I can see that.

Hamilton was the car in front going into the corner, and he was effectively forced off the track by the car attacking him. Max didn't 'close the door', or 'hang him out' - he literally came from behind and left him nowhere to go but off the track.

What Max did wasn't dangerous or illegal - it was a fine, aggressive move. But he literally gave Hamilton, who was in front until half a second before he left the track, no other option.

It's a silly position to approve of Max lunging aggressively (but legally) in a move like this, but to be annoyed at Hamilton leaving the track.

I was more disappointed that Hamilton, as the car in front, didn't defend the inside line more aggressively. Had Max left the track in the way Hamilton did, having come into the corner second, he would have rightfully been asked to give the place back.

[MarkwG]

sly fox said:

Not a massive Hamilton fan at all here - so for some balance i'll put down what i don't like about him rather than all this gushing.

1 Clearly great at PR. There are many angles to this and a few current drivers/ ex drivers have made this comment in the past year or so- he's great at using PR to his advantage. they all are, it's part of the role

2. Fake radio messages/ psychology used against other drivers. It's pathetic. [b] see above + what you hear is what the production team want you to hear, & when they want you to hear it[/]

3. Whinging. Oh the whinging. The amount of times he tells us the tyres are shot/gone/dead and then puts in a fastest lap 2 minutes later. Could be related to point (2). see 1. + you don't think that's part of the strategy? It's reasonably well known that some teams, Mercedes included, use a signalling system to differentiate between a genuine message & one where they mean the opposite. The radio comms are for the teams, not the fans

4. All this BLM/ Race for change/ LBGT bullst. How many more POC are we seeing in teams, pits or on the grid after a year or so of this campaign? I'd argue Zero. It's an Instagram /Social media content filler and nothing more. I know it's not going to be an overnight change but it's been 2 full seasons now. Wearing LGBT coloured helmets changes nothing. yet you're quite happy with all the work the other drivers do off stage? Just Hamilton? Right, got that...

5. Like many periods in F1 history, we have had drivers who win championships where a technical dominance has been significant. Like Ferrari/Schumacher, Lewis and Mercedes have won several championships with no real competition. Yes he has won 7 WC's, but i don't feel like they were great seasons or real challenges. But boy does he mention this fact at the drop of a (manufacturer sponsored) hat. because you don't understand or appreciate just how much work goes into being that good, obviously. The best car doesn't just appear, the drivers & teams develop it between them. The better you get, the more you're rewarded, that's sporting life, it's not unique to F1. No-one ever says "yeah, that Federer, he's only that good because of his racquet..."

It's a real shame that to me (and possibly other F1 fans) that these things detract from Lewis as a true great F1 driver. He's definitely not the greatest.

In my view, he's got the speed, talent and drive to rival (and arguably surpass) any driver in F1 history yet these personal characteristics for me stop him being a class act. you're not the only one, but it says far more about you than it says about him...& not in a good way

Edited by sly fox on Monday 13th December 11:43

Just to add some balance...

[NRS]

RB Will said:

As someone that isn't a fan of Hamilton even I feel bad for him the way that ended, but I do feel the most deserving driver won the championship.

Hamilton was all over the place at the start of the season making mistakes in every race. And all the points taken off Max / gained by Hamilton out of Max's control (Baku, Silverstone, Hungry, possibly Spa, Imola), this season could have been over races ago. Bottas has helped out significantly here, if it were not for him then The championship would have been done a race ago.

Feel we were a bit robbed from the start in this last race with Hamilton going all Mario kart again and just skipping the chicane and getting a massive advantage, off out of DRS range. He may well have been quicker and got back by a lap or so later anyway but at least the lead will have been earned then and we would have had a much more interesting part of the race with Hamilton trying to get by, maybe Perez could have been involved then too.

I'm pretty puzzled by your post. I think Lewis won 3 out of the first 4 races this season, when the RB was quicker. Max and RB threw away quite a few points there. Then Max got back into it, before the Merc came back strong at the end.

If you talk about the 2 races lost to Silverstone and Hungary what about the 2 races that Max won due to Masi - Spa and yesterday for example? I am really puzzled by how Spa was an example of a race that Lewis benefitted over Max, given Max won a 2 lap "race" - how does that help Lewis?!

Max would easily have deserved to win this season, he had the faster car (according to Newey yesterday), he did an amazing job in terms of not wheel to wheel racing and is one of the fastest if not fastest racers out there. The FIA have taken a lot of that away IMO with how they ran the season. Max was even saying the same thing until he won.

[TroubledSoul]

C70R said:

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR".
2. He plays mind-games on team radio.
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes.
4. He's in a dominant car.

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male.

My thoughts exactly

[NRS]

TroubledSoul said:

C70R said:

Just so I'm completely clear.

You don't like Hamilton, and think he's "definitely not the greatest" because:
1. He does "PR".
2. He plays mind-games on team radio.
3. He uses his position to champion minority causes.
4. He's in a dominant car.

That's a compelling character assassination if ever I've heard one.

£10 says you're a straight, white, middle-aged male.

My thoughts exactly

It's always very telling we've never seen criticism about Vettel doing the same LGBT+ and women's rights, comments about countries being dodgy, the same PR stuff, the same shouting on the radio, the same dominated for a shorter time... I wonder what might be different?

[Fast and Spurious]

NRS said:

It's always very telling we've never seen criticism about Vettel doing the same LGBT+ and women's rights, comments about countries being dodgy, the same PR stuff, the same shouting on the radio, the same dominated for a shorter time... I wonder what might be different?

Oh that's easy:
He didn't live in slums and he doesn't do social media.

[RB Will]

NRS said:

If you talk about the 2 races lost to Silverstone and Hungary what about the 2 races that Max won due to Masi - Spa and yesterday for example? I am really puzzled by how Spa was an example of a race that Lewis benefitted over Max, given Max won a 2 lap "race" - how does that help Lewis?!

Thinking on that one is if it went full distance then Max may well have had a bigger points advantage, as it was, Hamilton got a better result (smaller points gap) than finishing likely 2nd.