The Official 2018 Chinese Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
andburg said:
Merc are so out of practice in reacting to things because they've been so dominant they are now making the wrong decisions when they don't have the fastest car.
Red Bull are the team who have had to fight the most recently for the wins, they've not had the fastest so have become very good at making race changing decisions.
If the season continues to be topsy turvy i expect RBR to win more races and max will eventually come good.
Agree with this. Red Bull are the team who have had to fight the most recently for the wins, they've not had the fastest so have become very good at making race changing decisions.
If the season continues to be topsy turvy i expect RBR to win more races and max will eventually come good.
Also people saying Lewis has lost it, give your heads a wobble. Leading in Aus until mercs mess up, podium in Bahrain after starting 9th, overtaking 4 cars in a row (arguably staying out too long in the first stint), China = disaster but could have won it if the right pit call was made.
Seems to me as if Mercedes need to learn how to race again, they’ve had it so much their own way that they’ve forgotten how to make quick decisions
rev-erend said:
Kimi - stella all weekend, got to taste the Champagne but on did not win.
Whilst Ferrari strat team had an off weekend, Kimi's strat was a bit too questionable for me. Generally Ferrari strat decisions have an air of plausible deniability about them but this one had me scratching my head.Merc reacted to both RB cars' pace by pitting Hamilton first (who Kimi was racing at the time), then Bottas came in immediately after.
I sense Ferrari were a bit lethargic in reacting to Bottas with Vettel, but why didn't they react to Hamilton who posed a more immediate danger to Kimi? By the time they pit Vettel, Ricciardo was also well within Kimi's pit window, so he would have come out last among the top three teams if they had pitted him then.
So, they decide to extend his 1st stint to build a tyre offset and thus an advantage of around 10 laps. By this time I think all three teams were leaning heavily towards a 1-stop. Buying a tyre advantage like this is correct provided the pitwall believes that this tyre advantage is enough to make up the time loss and make up the positions lost to the undercut. But this is another clear error as Kimi lost around 9 seconds to Bottas/Vettel in that time (and similar to Ham/Ric), which is damn near impossible to make up as the pace was very similar. In no way were they creating the delta needed to catch and pass on the same compound of tyres as all the other drivers...and trying to do it on a 1-stop.
Either go all in on the gamble or stay conservative, they did neither with Kimi and took the piss with his race like he's some cheap No. 2, not the guy who is still their last WDC.
I suspect switching him to a definite 2-stop immediately after they'd realised he's been undercut by all and sundry, would have put him in a position to win the race. But they had the cheek to use him to try and slow Bottas... unbelievable Ferrari. No wonder Kimi just becomes anonymous in the races sometimes. Sort it out!
Dr Z said:
Whilst Ferrari strat team had an off weekend, Kimi's strat was a bit too questionable for me. Generally Ferrari strat decisions have an air of plausible deniability about them but this one had me scratching my head.
Merc reacted to both RB cars' pace by pitting Hamilton first (who Kimi was racing at the time), then Bottas came in immediately after.
I sense Ferrari were a bit lethargic in reacting to Bottas with Vettel, but why didn't they react to Hamilton who posed a more immediate danger to Kimi? By the time they pit Vettel, Ricciardo was also well within Kimi's pit window, so he would have come out last among the top three teams if they had pitted him then.
So, they decide to extend his 1st stint to build a tyre offset and thus an advantage of around 10 laps. By this time I think all three teams were leaning heavily towards a 1-stop. Buying a tyre advantage like this is correct provided the pitwall believes that this tyre advantage is enough to make up the time loss and make up the positions lost to the undercut. But this is another clear error as Kimi lost around 9 seconds to Bottas/Vettel in that time (and similar to Ham/Ric), which is damn near impossible to make up as the pace was very similar. In no way were they creating the delta needed to catch and pass on the same compound of tyres as all the other drivers...and trying to do it on a 1-stop.
Either go all in on the gamble or stay conservative, they did neither with Kimi and took the piss with his race like he's some cheap No. 2, not the guy who is still their last WDC.
I suspect switching him to a definite 2-stop immediately after they'd realised he's been undercut by all and sundry, would have put him in a position to win the race. But they had the cheek to use him to try and slow Bottas... unbelievable Ferrari. No wonder Kimi just becomes anonymous in the races sometimes. Sort it out!
Totally agree. Kimi seems to just be an after thought in the Ferrari garage.Merc reacted to both RB cars' pace by pitting Hamilton first (who Kimi was racing at the time), then Bottas came in immediately after.
I sense Ferrari were a bit lethargic in reacting to Bottas with Vettel, but why didn't they react to Hamilton who posed a more immediate danger to Kimi? By the time they pit Vettel, Ricciardo was also well within Kimi's pit window, so he would have come out last among the top three teams if they had pitted him then.
So, they decide to extend his 1st stint to build a tyre offset and thus an advantage of around 10 laps. By this time I think all three teams were leaning heavily towards a 1-stop. Buying a tyre advantage like this is correct provided the pitwall believes that this tyre advantage is enough to make up the time loss and make up the positions lost to the undercut. But this is another clear error as Kimi lost around 9 seconds to Bottas/Vettel in that time (and similar to Ham/Ric), which is damn near impossible to make up as the pace was very similar. In no way were they creating the delta needed to catch and pass on the same compound of tyres as all the other drivers...and trying to do it on a 1-stop.
Either go all in on the gamble or stay conservative, they did neither with Kimi and took the piss with his race like he's some cheap No. 2, not the guy who is still their last WDC.
I suspect switching him to a definite 2-stop immediately after they'd realised he's been undercut by all and sundry, would have put him in a position to win the race. But they had the cheek to use him to try and slow Bottas... unbelievable Ferrari. No wonder Kimi just becomes anonymous in the races sometimes. Sort it out!
But it actually worked out for him in the end. He had better tyres but it was the safety car that saved him. If it hadn't been for the safety car Kimi would have been no where.
But you can understand Ferrari's thinking. Kimi can excel in certain circumstance but then again he can have races where he just doesn't have the same pace.
Kimi so far this year "especially in qualifying" has been very impressive. Unfortunately he seems to be forgotten about during the race which messes up any chance of him winning.
Car-Matt said:
I think Hamilton has some issues in the background affecting his performance, he just wasn't on it all weekend, and now beaten twice in a row by Bottas.
Once his contract is sorted he'll be back to his usual self.......delicate little flower is Lewis.....
Wasn’t it one of the Mclaren staffs whose been quoted as saying they got 3/10s a lap extra out of Lewis if he wasn’t having problems with Nicole Schirzinger at the time Once his contract is sorted he'll be back to his usual self.......delicate little flower is Lewis.....
andburg said:
Merc are so out of practice in reacting to things because they've been so dominant they are now making the wrong decisions when they don't have the fastest car.
Red Bull are the team who have had to fight the most recently for the wins, they've not had the fastest so have become very good at making race changing decisions.
If the season continues to be topsy turvy i expect RBR to win more races and max will eventually come good.
Did I just dream Mercedes getting the lead of the race with the undercut on strategy?Red Bull are the team who have had to fight the most recently for the wins, they've not had the fastest so have become very good at making race changing decisions.
If the season continues to be topsy turvy i expect RBR to win more races and max will eventually come good.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Derek Smith said:
Max doesn’t remind me of Hamilton, despite the latter’s incidents early on in his career. Whilst he still has crashes, there is often a point to them. Collisions with his team mates can prove useful; keep them circumspect.
Sorry to quote just this point Derek (& I'm not just jumping on this point but I'm addressing this the most) but HAM went through a terrible stage in his career between 08-13 IMHO, I say that as a huge fan of his!I actually think there's more similarities between HAM & VES than first meets the eye, they both have that same innate skill. But VES has a self belief that HAM has never had and I think never will. Maybe that's the wrong way to put it? I'm sure HAM has the self belief but at times he doesn't believe himself I think?
Having said that I'm convinced VES doesn't have the one lap pace HAM has and never will.
Regardless, bloody great race. Watched it with family so only catching up on posting now.
Max's racecraft needs refining/maturing. Its like he's desperate to prove himself and an arrogance and expectation for rivals to move out the way.
Max reminds me more of Stefan Bellof and Gilles Villeneuve than Lewis. Lewis rarely has had collisions. 2011 was Lewis's annus horribillis. 2009 was a humbling year after winning WDC - pushed too hard at the Italian GP and went off in the final laps gunning for podium position. 07-08 he drove the last third of the season as if winning races was more important than sealing WDC but 08 Brazil showed maturity only because McLaren gave him less downforce package for the Grand Prix.
entropy said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Derek Smith said:
Max doesn’t remind me of Hamilton, despite the latter’s incidents early on in his career. Whilst he still has crashes, there is often a point to them. Collisions with his team mates can prove useful; keep them circumspect.
Sorry to quote just this point Derek (& I'm not just jumping on this point but I'm addressing this the most) but HAM went through a terrible stage in his career between 08-13 IMHO, I say that as a huge fan of his!I actually think there's more similarities between HAM & VES than first meets the eye, they both have that same innate skill. But VES has a self belief that HAM has never had and I think never will. Maybe that's the wrong way to put it? I'm sure HAM has the self belief but at times he doesn't believe himself I think?
Having said that I'm convinced VES doesn't have the one lap pace HAM has and never will.
Regardless, bloody great race. Watched it with family so only catching up on posting now.
Max's racecraft needs refining/maturing. Its like he's desperate to prove himself and an arrogance and expectation for rivals to move out the way.
Max reminds me more of Stefan Bellof and Gilles Villeneuve than Lewis. Lewis rarely has had collisions. 2011 was Lewis's annus horribillis. 2009 was a humbling year after winning WDC - pushed too hard at the Italian GP and went off in the final laps gunning for podium position. 07-08 he drove the last third of the season as if winning races was more important than sealing WDC but 08 Brazil showed maturity only because McLaren gave him less downforce package for the Grand Prix.
It seems that Mercedes never even considered bringing Hamilton in:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-didnt-...
I'm struggling to understand the argument that track position was everything though. If Hamilton came in but only lost one place to Kimi he would have then been right behind him (after the SC) on fresher tyres. RB proved it was massively advantageous so for the Merc srategists to not know that shows they must have some real issues with their simulation software. I do get the impression there's too much "computer says no" & not enough racing experience. The only mitigating factor might have been that they were factoring in they only had worn tyres left.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-didnt-...
I'm struggling to understand the argument that track position was everything though. If Hamilton came in but only lost one place to Kimi he would have then been right behind him (after the SC) on fresher tyres. RB proved it was massively advantageous so for the Merc srategists to not know that shows they must have some real issues with their simulation software. I do get the impression there's too much "computer says no" & not enough racing experience. The only mitigating factor might have been that they were factoring in they only had worn tyres left.
Car-Matt said:
I think Hamilton has some issues in the background affecting his performance, he just wasn't on it all weekend, and now beaten twice in a row by Bottas.
Once his contract is sorted he'll be back to his usual self.......delicate little flower is Lewis.....
I'm not a Hamilton apologist but he came away cutting the points deficit to 9. He got pole in Australia and would have won were it not for an unfortunate call surrounding the VSC / pit stop. And a gearbox issue in Bahrain put paid to a decent challenge there.Once his contract is sorted he'll be back to his usual self.......delicate little flower is Lewis.....
It's a long season and I harbour the belief that many twists and turns will befall it as it proceeds but Hamilton being 'off it' isn't likely to be one of them...at least not consistently.
Its worth noting that after three races last year, Lewis and Seb were 7 points apart. They are 9 apart after three rounds this year.
And more importantly, they have 16 and 14 points less respectively which I think shows its been a very volatile start to the year. Suspect its going to continue like this as well.
I'd just allow them all to drill a few holes in each others wings to disturb the aero and it might get even more volatile.
And more importantly, they have 16 and 14 points less respectively which I think shows its been a very volatile start to the year. Suspect its going to continue like this as well.
I'd just allow them all to drill a few holes in each others wings to disturb the aero and it might get even more volatile.
Mr Pointy said:
It seems that Mercedes never even considered bringing Hamilton in:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-didnt-...
I'm struggling to understand the argument that track position was everything though. If Hamilton came in but only lost one place to Kimi he would have then been right behind him (after the SC) on fresher tyres. RB proved it was massively advantageous so for the Merc srategists to not know that shows they must have some real issues with their simulation software. I do get the impression there's too much "computer says no" & not enough racing experience. The only mitigating factor might have been that they were factoring in they only had worn tyres left.
Mercedes need to get a grip on strategy. They have been winning easy in recent seasons but not anymore.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-didnt-...
I'm struggling to understand the argument that track position was everything though. If Hamilton came in but only lost one place to Kimi he would have then been right behind him (after the SC) on fresher tyres. RB proved it was massively advantageous so for the Merc srategists to not know that shows they must have some real issues with their simulation software. I do get the impression there's too much "computer says no" & not enough racing experience. The only mitigating factor might have been that they were factoring in they only had worn tyres left.
Apart from the first season, where RB won 3 races in a season doing basically the same as they did today?
1, maybe 2 people on here called it at the time. Almost everyone else is probably commenting with only hindsight. It also ignores that Hamilton could have lost 3 positions I think for pitting, and overtaking is not easy this season. He's in a WDC race, so has to be more conservative and get the safe points (Prost style). RB could have lost a few positions but won the race, which is the best they will do this year. So the risk versus benefit was massively in favour of RB doing this.
1, maybe 2 people on here called it at the time. Almost everyone else is probably commenting with only hindsight. It also ignores that Hamilton could have lost 3 positions I think for pitting, and overtaking is not easy this season. He's in a WDC race, so has to be more conservative and get the safe points (Prost style). RB could have lost a few positions but won the race, which is the best they will do this year. So the risk versus benefit was massively in favour of RB doing this.
Mercedes have publicly stated their aim is to finish the season with using just three engines (i.e. the allowed amount). Whereas Renault have said that they know already they will aim for four. Has anyone considered that the increased competitiveness in the races from Ferrari could be because they are intending to use four engines and thus have shorter component life? Is there any way that Mercedes could detect that?
Mercedes and Ferrari expect to win, rolling the dice on a pit stop could lose them positions, so they play safe. Red Bull, if the red and silver cars finish, would expect 5th or lower, rolling the dice could get them slightly less points or a win/podium. But at the time Hamilton wasn't at the front, he was in the Red Bull's position. For the first pit stop, he was told to do the opposite to Raikonnen, so Merc were watching Ferrari during the race, not Red Bull. Ferrari seem to be running a 1 car team though, with Vettel, Merc covering for Raikonnen wasn't the thing to do anyway.
Mercedes have to watch Vettel and Red Bull now, a bad day is going to get you 6th or lower now, not 4th or lower, big difference over a season, and a lot more potential for them to take points away from each other.
I hope Red Bull can get into it more, to make it a proper 3 sided fight
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