Official 2024 Chinese Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[TheDeuce]

Byker28i said:

Mr Tidy said:

But Lando was impressive, and George did better than Lewis - again! Probably mainly because Alonso didn't manage to catch up with him.

Did George shine this weekend? Hamilton almost caught him up after cocking up qualifying.

In fairness, George got as high up the order as he realistically could, the cars ahead were all simply faster.

Lewis, due to his own quali fk up, definitely had more work to do - and did it.

Both did all they could be expected to do this weekend imo.

[HardtopManual]

heebeegeetee said:

https://youtu.be/iy8p3XkVpto?si=nhOp6KR2ZKAQbb7E&a... Imola 2005, fabulous performance.

I feel quite sad watching that. In the modern era, those laps-long battles are replaced with a simple DRS pass at the end of a straight.

Then there's the noise.

[TheDeuce]

HardtopManual said:

heebeegeetee said:

https://youtu.be/iy8p3XkVpto?si=nhOp6KR2ZKAQbb7E&a... Imola 2005, fabulous performance.

I feel quite sad watching that. In the modern era, those laps-long battles are replaced with a simple DRS pass at the end of a straight.

Then there's the noise.

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

ETA: I agree about the noise

[Byker28i]

TheDeuce said:

HardtopManual said:

heebeegeetee said:

https://youtu.be/iy8p3XkVpto?si=nhOp6KR2ZKAQbb7E&a... Imola 2005, fabulous performance.

I feel quite sad watching that. In the modern era, those laps-long battles are replaced with a simple DRS pass at the end of a straight.

Then there's the noise.

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

ETA: I agree about the noise

But then a clever driver like Alonso backs up the corner before and scarpers, negating the .3 sec gain from DRS etc

[Forester1965]

The Deuce said:

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

It's almost as if...the best drivers would be the ones who can overtake and win and the mediocre ones can sit behind the slower car because they're not skilful enough to get past. Sounds awful doesn't it!

[HardtopManual]

TheDeuce said:

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

ETA: I agree about the noise

No, DRS wasn't on the table at all until the F-duct came along in 2010. Then, it was hurriedly implemented in 2011 to solve a problem that didn't really exist at that point. I don't remember anybody complaining about 2010; in fact it was something of a classic season. At the same time, F1 also hurriedly introduced chocolate tyres because high tyre deg was responsible for much of the "racing" at Canada 2010.

[Hungrymc]

TheDeuce said:

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

ETA: I agree about the noise

I agree. DRS might be the wrong answer, but cars being stuck behind each other unless they have a 2 second lap time advantage makes poor racing. The video shows a problem that hasn't yet been effectively solved.

[axel1990chp]

On the subject of DRS.

I personally think it needs a shake up.

A single detection zone - if you're within the second gap as it currently is, the driver has open discretion on where to use their DRS (a 3 second/5 second application?) where ever they so choose.

I think it would give a much better fighting element than it currently is!


That being said, its my opinion that most overtakes are so much more difficult these days because of the absolute boat like size of the cars these days. Someone on this very forum posted a picture of last years Alpine vs Freds championship winning Renault. It was bonkers. Audi A8L vs Mk2 VW Golf!

[Derek Smith]

Byker28i said:

But then a clever driver like Alonso backs up the corner before and scarpers, negating the .3 sec gain from DRS etc

Have overturned cars round blind bends is not a sensible alternative to DRS though.

[TheDeuce]

Forester1965 said:

The Deuce said:

The problem is, that video is a perfect example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. So that the battle could eventually have a conclusion. Before DRS battles like in that video did used to drag on, and on, and on... And the faster driver in the faster car often couldn't pass because they didnt have enough of a speed differential to get it done - so often the slower car and/or driver would finish the race ahead as a result. Is that better/worse than DRS? It's a debateable imo, and at the time it was very much the fact that people were grumbling 'these cars can't pass one another'...

It's almost as if...the best drivers would be the ones who can overtake and win and the mediocre ones can sit behind the slower car because they're not skilful enough to get past. Sounds awful doesn't it!

Well it's obviously not the case - as that video demonstrates, a very skilful driver indeed in a faster car couldn't get past! In my earlier days watching F1 that so often happened, the fastest driver in the fastest car couldn't pass, it just wasn't possible, or at least not worth the risk - so the race eventually timed out and they finished second/third, whatever.

It was infuriating! I'm not saying DRS is overall better, but it's not actually worse imo. Hopefully before long they'll find a third, better solution.

[Forester1965]

Overtaking is a fundamental skill for a racing driver. It's a differentiator. Letting them sail past down the straight with the wing reduced not only penalises skilled overtakers, it robs the audience of genuine overtakes, which are shunned in favour of the draught-pass.

Your position seems like someone watching football and demanding the goal be made bigger every 5 minutes because neither team can score and it's so frustrating!

[thegreenhell]

Forester1965 said:

Overtaking is a fundamental skill for a racing driver. It's a differentiator. Letting them sail past down the straight with the wing reduced not only penalises skilled overtakers, it robs the audience of genuine overtakes, which are shunned in favour of the draught-pass.

Your position seems like someone watching football and demanding the goal be made bigger every 5 minutes because neither team can score and it's so frustrating!

Indeed so. Sometimes a 0-0 draw, or in this case Schumacher failing to overtake Alonso, is more exciting than a glut of goals or DRS passes.

[TheDeuce]

axel1990chp said:

On the subject of DRS.

I personally think it needs a shake up.

A single detection zone - if you're within the second gap as it currently is, the driver has open discretion on where to use their DRS (a 3 second/5 second application?) where ever they so choose.

I think it would give a much better fighting element than it currently is!


That being said, its my opinion that most overtakes are so much more difficult these days because of the absolute boat like size of the cars these days. Someone on this very forum posted a picture of last years Alpine vs Freds championship winning Renault. It was bonkers. Audi A8L vs Mk2 VW Golf!

The cars are going to start reducing in size incrementally, starting form 2026 - no doubt part of this change in direction is (unofficially) to reduce weight over time to allow for more batteries and at some point full electrification of the cars.

The electric F1 car debate is another topic really... but on the assumption the sport has to follow road car trends eventually, which means electrification, the 'push to pass' button could become far more powerful and replace the need for DRS entirely. That could in fact be implemented as part of the final 2026 regs, although whilst it's definitely possible, it hasn't been mentioned yet.

So anyway, the cars are going to start changing quite drastically, which will present alternatives to DRS reliance - but maybe not 'better', who knows...?

[Forester1965]

TheDeuce said:

push to pass' button could become far more powerful and replace the need for DRS entirely.

They already tried push to pass with KERS.

[TheDeuce]

Forester1965 said:

Overtaking is a fundamental skill for a racing driver. It's a differentiator. Letting them sail past down the straight with the wing reduced not only penalises skilled overtakers, it robs the audience of genuine overtakes, which are shunned in favour of the draught-pass.

Your position seems like someone watching football and demanding the goal be made bigger every 5 minutes because neither team can score and it's so frustrating!

Overtaking is a fundamental skill, I agree - but despite drivers having that skill in abundance, at several circuits pre DRS it was impossible to get a pass made vs a car that was slower but, not quite slow enough to be passed. Unless the driver of the other car made an error. Actually I remeber that's what we used to hope for back then, that eventually, 7 laps later, the other driver would make an error under pressure. I don't see waiting patiently for one driver to make an error in order for another to have a possibility of a pass as much better than DRS tbh. I suppose I would agree it's more natural and more a test of the driver - but the drivers these days are tested in other ways, the best drivers always find areas to demonstrate their skill advantage whatever the rules are, and with or without DRS.

My position is not pro DRS at all by the way, I was just pointing out that the video posted was also a good example of why they came up with DRS in the first place. I would personally be quite happy if the entire sport was wound back to those days, proper engines, no DRS, less woke-ness...

[romft123]

Max was 3 seconds ahead of second place after 4 laps, 6 seconds ahead after 7. Thats just incredible. Just HTF can anyone get near that

[g4ry13]

romft123 said:

Max was 3 seconds ahead of second place after 4 laps, 6 seconds ahead after 7. Thats just incredible. Just HTF can anyone get near that

When safety car period came to an end he was pulling about a second gap within the first sector.

[TheDeuce]

Forester1965 said:

TheDeuce said:

push to pass' button could become far more powerful and replace the need for DRS entirely.

They already tried push to pass with KERS.

We're talking about possible alternatives to DRS in the future, which obviously wouldn't be exactly the same as a solution they tried years ago. That's why I went to the bother of explaining that further electrification opens up the possibility for a far, far more potent push to pass than was possible before.

And before assumptions are made, no, me talking about a potential future push to pass system doesn't mean I'm a fan of the idea. It's just something I expect is of interest to the powers that be - it's so easy with electric power to add such a system and it 'could' improve upon what DRS does, it's also easy to make relevant to road cars, a few of which already actually have a temp electrical boost function in fact.

[BrettMRC]

DRS would be much more interesting if it was limited to a set number of activations per race, and can be used in any DRS zone regardless of current distance to the next nearest car.

I think the strategy implications would be interesting with that!

[Jasandjules]

romft123 said:

Max was 3 seconds ahead of second place after 4 laps, 6 seconds ahead after 7. Thats just incredible. Just HTF can anyone get near that

They can't. That Red Bull is 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the best of the rest.

We are not going to see any racing until 2026, assuming that temas diverge and we don't simply find one has utterly nailed it again....