RE: No predictability in 2014 F1
Discussion
The Jaguar C-X75 has a 1.6 litre engine (only a four cylinder mind) but produces 900bhp with the supercharger, turbocharger and all the electrical gubbins so I dare say the grand prix teams will manage to bang out 1000 or more. it's the fuel limit that worries me ... pussy footing around has no part in F1.
phil1979 said:
If they are going the turbo route, couldn't Red Bull's competitors simply get a remap from someone like Angel Tuning, to get an edge? The FIA wouldn't be able to test for it (a dealer can't tell that my car's been remapped), plus it would only be about £150. Also, the tuner can come to the premises, so no need to transport the car to them.
Are they allowed to run a diesel? Remap one of those babies and you'll be flying!TX.
'On a BBC program in 20 years' ...... Formula 1 once had great origins but in the drive to make all cars more and more like washing machines someone had the bright idea of binning the pathetic IC engine and just stick in a washing machine motor with a couple of bottles of nitrous oxide and some spark plugs to give the 'exhaust effect', Some batteries from the managers phone and two conductive rails running around the track. The genius part was the cars were fitted with brushes underneath to conduct the electricity needed for the washing machine motors in each wheel.
The technology was fascinatingly daft as it had taken decades to implement the power supply systems used for a childs racing toy many years earlier.
The technology was fascinatingly daft as it had taken decades to implement the power supply systems used for a childs racing toy many years earlier.
Well I for one cannot wait for next year! Like everyone else I feel it has got a little predictable and boring of late but next year it'll all be up in the air plus I can't see reliability being as good as it has been and as for engines they will sound awesome if they sound half as good as the Renaults and Hondas of the 80's era. Roll on next year and if I'm wrong I give up?...
philmots said:
I don't see how the top level cars in Motorsport can be running with 600hp..
1000hp is a better figure, cars are getting slower year on year, where's progress.
They've been getting slower in a straight line since 2004.1000hp is a better figure, cars are getting slower year on year, where's progress.
The straightline speed of an F1 car is pretty much irrelevant these days - here are the qualifying maximum speeds at the speedtrap in Monza for the years I have data for.
Note that the last few years the fastest cars in a straight line have started towards the back of the grid -- the leaders are slow in a straight line (largely because they are drag limited by the huge amounts of downforce they generate.
Even at Monza, which is higher speed than most tracks on the calendar, the corners there (and the braking into them and drive out of them) demand lots of downforce to be competitive.
Monza Speedtrap: Qualifying maximum speeds by year
| Year | Grid Starting Position | Driver | Time of Day | Speedtrap km/h |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2004 | 7 | Jarno Trulli | 14:19:54 | 363.1 |
| 2005 | 5 | Fernando Alonso | 13:45:44 | 359.5 |
| 2006 | 16 | Nick Heidfeld | 14:35:01 | 348.4 |
| 2007 | 9 | Nick Heidfeld | 14:08:05 | 349.6 |
| 2008 | 10 | Mark Webber | 14:16:34 | 327.4 (rain affected) |
| 2009 | 14 | Mark Webber | 14:07:31 | 343.8 |
| 2010 | 17 | Jaime Alguersuari | 14:08:16 | 348.7 |
| 2011 | 17 | Sergio Perez | 14:19:24 | 349.2 |
| 2012 | 9 | Kimi Räikkönen | 14:59:33 | 342.7 |
| 2013 | 19 | Daniel Ricciardo | 14:07:05 | 340.4 |
firebird350 said:
Honestly, forget all this technology, just fill the entire 2014 grid with identical 1970's group 4 Lancia Stratoses running on forest tyres and let the current F1 drivers each take their pick!
Good idea.I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .
A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.
My proposed formula was:
Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)
CraigyMc said:
philmots said:
I don't see how the top level cars in Motorsport can be running with 600hp..
1000hp is a better figure, cars are getting slower year on year, where's progress.
They've been getting slower in a straight line since 2004.1000hp is a better figure, cars are getting slower year on year, where's progress.
The straightline speed of an F1 car is pretty much irrelevant these days - here are the qualifying maximum speeds at the speedtrap in Monza for the years I have data for.
Note that the last few years the fastest cars in a straight line have started towards the back of the grid -- the leaders are slow in a straight line (largely because they are drag limited by the huge amounts of downforce they generate.
Even at Monza, which is higher speed than most tracks on the calendar, the corners there (and the braking into them and drive out of them) demand lots of downforce to be competitive.
Monza Speedtrap: Qualifying maximum speeds by year
| Year | Grid Starting Position | Driver | Time of Day | Speedtrap km/h |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2004 | 7 | Jarno Trulli | 14:19:54 | 363.1 |
| 2005 | 5 | Fernando Alonso | 13:45:44 | 359.5 |
| 2006 | 16 | Nick Heidfeld | 14:35:01 | 348.4 |
| 2007 | 9 | Nick Heidfeld | 14:08:05 | 349.6 |
| 2008 | 10 | Mark Webber | 14:16:34 | 327.4 (rain affected) |
| 2009 | 14 | Mark Webber | 14:07:31 | 343.8 |
| 2010 | 17 | Jaime Alguersuari | 14:08:16 | 348.7 |
| 2011 | 17 | Sergio Perez | 14:19:24 | 349.2 |
| 2012 | 9 | Kimi Räikkönen | 14:59:33 | 342.7 |
| 2013 | 19 | Daniel Ricciardo | 14:07:05 | 340.4 |
2004: 900BHP+ @ 19,000rpm (unlimited)
2005 900BHP+ @ 19,000rpm (unlimited)
2006: 750BHP+ @ 20,000rpm (unlimited)
2007: 750BHP+ @ 19,000rpm (limited)
2008: 750BHP+ @ 19,000rpm (limited)
2009-2013: 725BP+ @ 18,000rpm (limited)
You need to remember that in the early-mid 2000s when they had all that excess power they would bung on extra wing because they could. In the later 2000s and 2010s they needed to trim everything back but then in the last few years I've seen a change in ethos - sacrifice straightline speed for extra wing.
TWPC said:
Good idea.
I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .
A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.
My proposed formula was:
Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)
I'd simplify it.I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .
A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.
My proposed formula was:
Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)
Wheels to be open. No canopy/roof. Must fit in a specified size of "box". And restricted to a specified number of calories of energy. Add in some crash tests.
But the costs would be horrendous.
What I do find interesting is it appears to be the people who don't like what we have got, that are the most adverse to any change. It's almost as if the'd complain about anything....
On a BBC program in 20 years' ...... Formula 1 once had great origins but in the drive to make all cars more and more like washing machines someone had the bright idea of binning the pathetic IC engine and just stick in a washing machine motor with a couple of bottles of nitrous oxide and some spark plugs to give the 'exhaust effect', Some batteries from the managers phone and two conductive rails running around the track. The genius part was the cars were fitted with brushes underneath to conduct the electricity needed for the washing machine motors in each wheel.
The technology was fascinatingly daft as it had taken decades to implement the power supply systems used for a childs racing toy many years earlier.
Childs racing toy!! You must have had a cheap old set, us real boys and men had and have still got Scalextric, and yes its more fun than F1, like others I did not even bother to watch it, Mike
The technology was fascinatingly daft as it had taken decades to implement the power supply systems used for a childs racing toy many years earlier.
Childs racing toy!! You must have had a cheap old set, us real boys and men had and have still got Scalextric, and yes its more fun than F1, like others I did not even bother to watch it, Mike
Munter said:
TWPC said:
Good idea.
I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .
A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.
My proposed formula was:
Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)
I'd simplify it.I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .
A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.
My proposed formula was:
Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)
Wheels to be open. No canopy/roof. Must fit in a specified size of "box". And restricted to a specified number of calories of energy. Add in some crash tests.
But the costs would be horrendous.
What I do find interesting is it appears to be the people who don't like what we have got, that are the most adverse to any change. It's almost as if the'd complain about anything....
The costs of an unlimited engine formula could indeed be horrendous, but I don't think any more so than a regulated formula. Without a budget cap the richest team will always seek to exploit its advantage.
Agree with your comment about the bizarre opposition to change...
Ye. I've noticed that too. They are also the ones who witter on about being the pinnacle of Motorsport then complain about the sport being too much about the cars. Seems a strange mindset. There is a reason single make is the bottom of the pile not the top. It is about the complete package, and working within the regs to get the best you can. IMO changing the engines shakes things up nicely, engine size is irrelevant, as it will always have to be capped in some way, and fuel restrictions seem much better than rev or power restrictions. Much less artificial.
Interesting to see how many people day it will be all Redbull and AN. One of the reasons they have had Kers issues is because he hates it and keeps designing cars without it then adding it on after.
Interesting to see how many people day it will be all Redbull and AN. One of the reasons they have had Kers issues is because he hates it and keeps designing cars without it then adding it on after.
PtheP said:
The Jaguar C-X75 has a 1.6 litre engine (only a four cylinder mind) but produces 900bhp with the supercharger, turbocharger and all the electrical gubbins so I dare say the grand prix teams will manage to bang out 1000 or more. it's the fuel limit that worries me ... pussy footing around has no part in F1.
There is a limit on the power allowed from KERS and there is a fuel flow as well as a total fuel limit. It's not physically possible for them to get that much power.dingocooke said:
And here was me thinking 'F1 cant get any more dull'
It doesn't matter how many gimmicks you throw at F1, it gets less exciting; and every time you introduce something like KERS, it becomes more difficult for a casual spectator to understand; F1 needs new fans, this won't help IMHO.
Simple formulae breeds exciting racing, what it needs is an open specification, for example if you have to fit the whole car within a cubic volume, and a maximum tyre track width and maximum weight limit.
Then no other restrictions; now that would be fun!!!
For me F1 racing died a long time ago
New F1 fans are likely to be young, aspirational, a large number from BRICS countries. They are tech savvy.It doesn't matter how many gimmicks you throw at F1, it gets less exciting; and every time you introduce something like KERS, it becomes more difficult for a casual spectator to understand; F1 needs new fans, this won't help IMHO.
Simple formulae breeds exciting racing, what it needs is an open specification, for example if you have to fit the whole car within a cubic volume, and a maximum tyre track width and maximum weight limit.
Then no other restrictions; now that would be fun!!!
For me F1 racing died a long time ago
In what way will KERS be difficult to understand?
New F1 fans aren't likely to have a beard and a workshop in the garden shed.
Is there a power limit next year? Haven't actually read up. Hopefully there isn't and they can just go gung-ho.
I seriously think bodywise they should just go back to the late 80's/early 90's and have simple shapes that looked good and weren't so amazing aerodynamically that nobody could pass.
F1 is all about progress though so there's no way that'd ever happen.
I seriously think bodywise they should just go back to the late 80's/early 90's and have simple shapes that looked good and weren't so amazing aerodynamically that nobody could pass.
F1 is all about progress though so there's no way that'd ever happen.
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