Discussion
Williams probably are in the situation most technology companies find themselves in if they have been around for over 40 years.
A lot of long term staff without the relevant skills to challenge at the top as the big money at the top 3 moves things on to
another level.
Couple that with long term staff developing cranky ways and are awkward to manage.
Its all very well saying paddy lowe fix it but its probably easier to get say 500 people to work on tasks at mercedes than 50 at williams.
You would think that having pretty much the best job in the world in most peoples eyes could boost you through any situation but thats where long service staff issue comes in as they will be a bit jaded by now.
Hope they all discover the love for what they do soon and maybe a bit of success will help.
A lot of long term staff without the relevant skills to challenge at the top as the big money at the top 3 moves things on to
another level.
Couple that with long term staff developing cranky ways and are awkward to manage.
Its all very well saying paddy lowe fix it but its probably easier to get say 500 people to work on tasks at mercedes than 50 at williams.
You would think that having pretty much the best job in the world in most peoples eyes could boost you through any situation but thats where long service staff issue comes in as they will be a bit jaded by now.
Hope they all discover the love for what they do soon and maybe a bit of success will help.
tigerkoi said:
You’re right: it is a dense, intricate situation with family, legacy, competitiveness all swirled into one, and just not easy to alliterate into a few short sentences on a forum. But it’s good and fair to discuss anyway, as all the intrigue, politics, and business aspects of F1 helps make it the enthralling sport it is!
The driving round in circles bit is the least interesting aspect.
I hope Williams do bounce back this year. However, if they're still in the bottom two after half way through this season, can Claire & Frank still head the team? I can see the F1 side being spun off to an organisation with the necessary deep pockets and the Williams family miantaining the road car engineering side. It'd be a shame, but it would be best for all concerned in the long run.
Europa Jon said:
I hope Williams do bounce back this year. However, if they're still in the bottom two after half way through this season, can Claire & Frank still head the team? I can see the F1 side being spun off to an organisation with the necessary deep pockets and the Williams family miantaining the road car engineering side. It'd be a shame, but it would be best for all concerned in the long run.
You think there’s a chance Williams won’t be in the bottom two half way through the season or indeed at any point? Europa Jon said:
I hope Williams do bounce back this year. However, if they're still in the bottom two after half way through this season, can Claire & Frank still head the team? I can see the F1 side being spun off to an organisation with the necessary deep pockets and the Williams family miantaining the road car engineering side. It'd be a shame, but it would be best for all concerned in the long run.
They can head the team so long as Frank can afford to do so. Which might very well be for the rest of his days. And in that time, he can do it his way - no matter if the rest of us are left scratching our heads. Claire included I think.davidc1 said:
After the way they handled damon leaving I never have sympathy for William's. Sorry!
Interested in your view, but you can see why Frank might’ve taken that decision at the time, right?- Hill hadn’t delivered in ‘94 or ‘95, and there was open question of whether he’d close in on the win for ‘96
- Hill was going to be expensive without counterbalancing with significant sponsorship
- Villenueve was reckoned to be able to do his job (and winning in ‘97 was subsequent vindication of that, regardless of what people think of JV himself!)
Didn’t McLaren & Hill pass on each other too at the time? You’re generally only paid what people are willing to pay you. Hill’s demands at the time might have been why some team principals thought he was good, but not that good.
I know we’re all whaling on Williams at the moment, but wouldn’t it be fair to say that in this scenario that Hill himself might have been partly responsible for playing himself out of the competitive picture?
davidc1 said:
After the way they handled damon leaving I never have sympathy for William's. Sorry!
Frank and Patrick were never warm and cuddly with their drivers. In Damon’s case though the year before he won the WDC he had the car win it but he through races and points away, not patient enough to plan a good overtake.
I like Damon and was made up when he won, it was frustrating watching him the season before... I can see why they went a different way.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
tigerkoi said:
davidc1 said:
After the way they handled damon leaving I never have sympathy for William's. Sorry!
Interested in your view, but you can see why Frank might’ve taken that decision at the time, right?Having watched Frank's mercenary approach screw multiple British drivers, and being younger at the time when the drivers nationality was a bigger thing, I've always felt a little cold to him too.
Coincidentally watching the williams film at the mo - apparently in the early days they were always scrabbling around without parts they needed... Fancy that.
tigerkoi said:
- Hill hadn’t delivered in ‘94 or ‘95
Rather disingenuous to say he didn't deliver in '94 when he would have won the title without Schumacher driving into him. Also with the 10 points for a win scoring system introduced soon after he'd have won by a clear 8 points. Given Senna was killed that season I would say he performed admirably. Teddy Lop said:
tigerkoi said:
davidc1 said:
After the way they handled damon leaving I never have sympathy for William's. Sorry!
Interested in your view, but you can see why Frank might’ve taken that decision at the time, right?Having watched Frank's mercenary approach screw multiple British drivers, and being younger at the time when the drivers nationality was a bigger thing, I've always felt a little cold to him too.
Coincidentally watching the williams film at the mo - apparently in the early days they were always scrabbling around without parts they needed... Fancy that.
I get the fan part. Without wanting to wind anyone up,
, due to voraciously reading my Michel Vaillant comics and being Montréalais then Villenueve was my guy!
Yeah, the documentary is very illuminating. As a stand-alone film it’s good viewing; in context of understanding Williams even better and judging more discreetly their current predicament, I wonder if all the family would now think it the best idea (to have filmed it). If it was Claire’s brainchild, then between that and her interview performance today after testing, I’m sort of scratching my head as to how much of PR/comms whiz she’s meant to be.
RichB said:
tigerkoi said:
- Hill hadn’t delivered in ‘94 or ‘95
Rather disingenuous to say he didn't deliver in '94 when he would have won the title without Schumacher driving into him. Also with the 10 points for a win scoring system introduced soon after he'd have won by a clear 8 points. Given Senna was killed that season I would say he performed admirably. Performing admirably is nice. But, you know, so what?
tigerkoi said:
Not really. Because for the belief at the time Schumacher was anyway, and would continue to be the better driver than Hill. You can look at ‘94 another way: Schumacher banned from two races and DQ’d from two others. And he still had 8 wins to Hill’s six. It’s easy to make an argument that even with MSC out the picture for four races, over the season Hill just couldn’t put away the open goal. So if Hill wasn’t perceived to be the best, hadn’t won the WDC yet, and Villenueve looked a capable understudy to do the job, then why pay him an inflated fee?
Performing admirably is nice. But, you know, so what?
That’s a good summary. Also a good reflection on the actual decision making at the time.Performing admirably is nice. But, you know, so what?
tigerkoi said:
Yeah, the documentary is very illuminating. As a stand-alone film it’s good viewing; in context of understanding Williams even better and judging more discreetly their current predicament, I wonder if all the family would now think it the best idea (to have filmed it). If it was Claire’s brainchild, then between that and her interview performance today after testing, I’m sort of scratching my head as to how much of PR/comms whiz she’s meant to be.
Maybe her brainchild, I sometimes think that people think airing all is the modern way to get people to warm to you!She's said they don't apportion blame, which is lovely - but in a business you kinda need to know who got what wrong.
She's said repeatedly that she was "disappointed to learn" about xyz latest problem. But, she should know.
She's said it's embarrassing for the team - what, all of them? Why should the (I assume majority) battling against whatever went wrong be embarrassed?
She's said she questions if she is the right person for the job.
She adopted the job almost by default, not that she's not highly capable, but the Williams name was a deal breaker for sure.
Her ability to bullsh*t in the name of PR is non-existent, which I find refreshing. But also, I think further indication she's stuck holding a role she probably wouldn't have found naturally.
Add it all up, and we appear, largely by her own words, to have a woman in a role she doesn't know she wants, doesn't enjoy, doesn't live and breath the way other team principals do.
I feel sorry for her. I'm mindful of the fact she's had a wonderful life others would love handed over to her, and that she's not a poor woman by any means. But of all the millions of things she might have independently chosen to apply her abilities to, I can't believe she would have chosen to run an F1 team.
This is the reality of battling fruitlessly to keep a family business going in a corporate world with vastly greater resources and far less old wood clogging up the machine. The name Williams is valuable and should live on, it deserves that much. Being 'Williams' as a family business, is not going to work.
The longer it takes to sell that name, the more value I think will be lost from that name.
One of the "casualties" last year at Williams was Ed Wood, then Chief Designer - which role essentially carries overall responsibility for coordinating the design process, one fairly important output of which is releasing designs to manufacturing in good time for launch.
I knew Ed years ago: good guy, undoubtedly very proficient at delivery. One wonders if the team might be trying to do without somebody as experienced in that role?
Autosport, writing after both Ed and Dirk de Beer (head of aero) had left in 2018, wrote "ex-McLaren head of aero Doug McKiernan effectively assuming the outgoing duo's responsibilities." So perhaps not so experienced at delivering an entire car package, sadly.
I knew Ed years ago: good guy, undoubtedly very proficient at delivery. One wonders if the team might be trying to do without somebody as experienced in that role?
Autosport, writing after both Ed and Dirk de Beer (head of aero) had left in 2018, wrote "ex-McLaren head of aero Doug McKiernan effectively assuming the outgoing duo's responsibilities." So perhaps not so experienced at delivering an entire car package, sadly.
I am still reflecting on Claire's interview yesterday. She sounded stressed, tired and out of her depth to me. If the boss doesn't know how to do the basics, or what the plan is beyond talking about Dad a lot, you really do have to fear for the future.
BTW does anyone know who has designed the car? I don't think they have brought anyone is since they fired Ed Wood.
BTW does anyone know who has designed the car? I don't think they have brought anyone is since they fired Ed Wood.
HighwayStar said:
Frank and Patrick were never warm and cuddly with their drivers.
In Damon’s case though the year before he won the WDC he had the car win it but he through races and points away, not patient enough to plan a good overtake.
I like Damon and was made up when he won, it was frustrating watching him the season before... I can see why they went a different way.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
I get the impression that (possibly because Frank's name is on the car) he's anxious to show it's the car that matters and drivers are interchangeable hired hands, Enzo Ferrari was the same.In Damon’s case though the year before he won the WDC he had the car win it but he through races and points away, not patient enough to plan a good overtake.
I like Damon and was made up when he won, it was frustrating watching him the season before... I can see why they went a different way.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Some great responses on this thread - insightful, opposing (but v v well set out) views with v persuasive arguments (particularly regarding Damon Hill's time in 94,95,96) and thoughts about Clair Williams/hierachy/position today etc etc.
I've always been one for 'no blaming; just work the problem' in work but I can definitely see why sometimes it's necessary to blame someone (because if you tar everyone with the blame brush you desperately hurt morale within those individuals/teams. tar them enough and they'll either leave or their performance will decline which is actually the worst overall outcome).
One the one hand I completely understand why the Williams Family want to carry the legacy forward but didn't I read somewhere that perhaps . one of the sons (Jonathan and Jaime) might have perhaps have the better skillset for the role that claire now does? But didn't want it perhaps (and now runs the heritage bit). Look I might have got that wholly wrong but am throwing it out there.
My point is - fingers are being pointed at Paddy Lowe for this but he's not the power. the one that gives the ultimate direction in the F1 business. Williams is (I'm not saying which one!). Yes PL has alot of sway but it's not his team. Perhaps giving PL the top job (and removing all Williams family personnel from the equation) might lead to a better car/uplift in performance. Perhaps not of course.
I like Claire - I identify with some of her mea culpa/human side but sadly, like me, perhaps she shouldn't really be in the job that she is - I get the impression that you have to be almost on the spectrum, in terms of your complete and only desire to win within F1; it's literally your life. And you have to know which route is best (for the performance of the car, the package, the aero, the PU, the suspension etc etc) for all elements of the team as they are reported to you and then you've got to put your foot down and tell that team/dept, that a) they're wrong and b) go in the correct route that you, as principal, have chosen/directed to them to do so, even if they are telling you that you are wrong......because you know, because you've got a greater depth of understanding of what you want/what's the better route. Trouble is - I don't get the impression she does know and therefore when she tries to give that direction none of the teams believe her and therefore this is what you end up with. 6 years of decline. On top of the rest of the decline in the years prior.
Perhaps I'm wrong and if I met her I'd realise she has the steel of her father. Perhaps she has - but perhaps that steel doesn't come with the inherent knowledge (or Patrick Head's knowledge!) you need.
Gut feel though - the Williams family needs to step back, in my view, for the Williams team to flourish. The dynasty is over.
I've always been one for 'no blaming; just work the problem' in work but I can definitely see why sometimes it's necessary to blame someone (because if you tar everyone with the blame brush you desperately hurt morale within those individuals/teams. tar them enough and they'll either leave or their performance will decline which is actually the worst overall outcome).
One the one hand I completely understand why the Williams Family want to carry the legacy forward but didn't I read somewhere that perhaps . one of the sons (Jonathan and Jaime) might have perhaps have the better skillset for the role that claire now does? But didn't want it perhaps (and now runs the heritage bit). Look I might have got that wholly wrong but am throwing it out there.
My point is - fingers are being pointed at Paddy Lowe for this but he's not the power. the one that gives the ultimate direction in the F1 business. Williams is (I'm not saying which one!). Yes PL has alot of sway but it's not his team. Perhaps giving PL the top job (and removing all Williams family personnel from the equation) might lead to a better car/uplift in performance. Perhaps not of course.
I like Claire - I identify with some of her mea culpa/human side but sadly, like me, perhaps she shouldn't really be in the job that she is - I get the impression that you have to be almost on the spectrum, in terms of your complete and only desire to win within F1; it's literally your life. And you have to know which route is best (for the performance of the car, the package, the aero, the PU, the suspension etc etc) for all elements of the team as they are reported to you and then you've got to put your foot down and tell that team/dept, that a) they're wrong and b) go in the correct route that you, as principal, have chosen/directed to them to do so, even if they are telling you that you are wrong......because you know, because you've got a greater depth of understanding of what you want/what's the better route. Trouble is - I don't get the impression she does know and therefore when she tries to give that direction none of the teams believe her and therefore this is what you end up with. 6 years of decline. On top of the rest of the decline in the years prior.
Perhaps I'm wrong and if I met her I'd realise she has the steel of her father. Perhaps she has - but perhaps that steel doesn't come with the inherent knowledge (or Patrick Head's knowledge!) you need.
Gut feel though - the Williams family needs to step back, in my view, for the Williams team to flourish. The dynasty is over.
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