Massa 2008 World Champion?
Discussion
Siao said:
That's the thing though, you assume that it is more than likely, when it frankly should be the other way round. The whole time they had the traffic light system they had 3 incidents (2 if we exclude the Singapore one), while they had used it successfully many more times within the same period. Statistically it is far less likely that they would have had an incident.
you don't have to use stats to assume anything when it actually happened ...im not sure what you're basing your assumption on & what would have changed in the 3-4 laps had Massa pitted on schedule? but you can also rule out one of the major 'human error' elements in an unsafe release pit stop (i.e the driver) as Massa went exactly when he was supposed to (green light)angrymoby said:
Siao said:
That's the thing though, you assume that it is more than likely, when it frankly should be the other way round. The whole time they had the traffic light system they had 3 incidents (2 if we exclude the Singapore one), while they had used it successfully many more times within the same period. Statistically it is far less likely that they would have had an incident.
you don't have to use stats to assume anything when it actually happened ...im not sure what you're basing your assumption on & what would have changed in the 3-4 laps had Massa pitted on schedule? but you can also rule out one of the major 'human error' elements in an unsafe release pit stop (i.e the driver) as Massa went exactly when he was supposed to (green light)Siao said:
The whole discussion is if that DIDN'T happen. That was not a scheduled pit stop where they were racing to get Massa in front of the other cars, having double stacked Kimi behind him. There's a big big difference there.
& again you're assuming the failure wasn't inevitable i.e either part failure or system rather than human ...im open to eitheryou're also assuming that every Singapore race/ pit stop is somehow relatively stress free & on schedule
angrymoby said:
Siao said:
The whole discussion is if that DIDN'T happen. That was not a scheduled pit stop where they were racing to get Massa in front of the other cars, having double stacked Kimi behind him. There's a big big difference there.
& again you're assuming the failure wasn't inevitable i.e either part failure or system rather than human ...im open to eitheryou're also assuming that every Singapore race/ pit stop is somehow relatively stress free & on schedule
And the last bit is a straw man argument, I didn't say that a pit stop is stress free; but it is worse when it is unscheduled, double-stacked and also against another 18 cars in the pits. I'm surprised you can't see the difference frankly.
usn90 said:
So for the “good of the sport” this was shelved.
Not that it will, but IF massa got his way I’d fully expect Lewis to take the 2021 championship legal, so he’d be no worse of in terms of count
If Massa got his way, it would be by way of having the 2008 Singapore GP race completely annulled.Not that it will, but IF massa got his way I’d fully expect Lewis to take the 2021 championship legal, so he’d be no worse of in terms of count
If that was applied to Abu Dhabi 2021, it wouldn't work for Lewis.
oyster said:
usn90 said:
So for the “good of the sport” this was shelved.
Not that it will, but IF massa got his way I’d fully expect Lewis to take the 2021 championship legal, so he’d be no worse of in terms of count
If Massa got his way, it would be by way of having the 2008 Singapore GP race completely annulled.Not that it will, but IF massa got his way I’d fully expect Lewis to take the 2021 championship legal, so he’d be no worse of in terms of count
If that was applied to Abu Dhabi 2021, it wouldn't work for Lewis.
Singapore 08 has not been challenged, so who knows if the result would stand.
AD 21 the result was protested and the stewards threw it out.
Siao said:
Did Kimi have an inevitable failure? He was double-stacked behind Massa.
for starters Kimi used a different rigwe'll never agree, but (& i know you like your stats) considering that the pole sitter has won in Singapore 75% of the time, but when Ferrari are involved the numbers drop dramatically down to 30%- i wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea that a race with 45 laps to go was Massa's in the bag & certainly not confident enough to annul it
angrymoby said:
for starters Kimi used a different rig
we'll never agree, but (& i know you like your stats) considering that the pole sitter has won in Singapore 75% of the time, but when Ferrari are involved the numbers drop dramatically down to 30%- i wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea that a race with 45 laps to go was Massa's in the bag & certainly not confident enough to annul it
You know I like my stats? I didn't claim that Massa had it in the bag... Anyway.we'll never agree, but (& i know you like your stats) considering that the pole sitter has won in Singapore 75% of the time, but when Ferrari are involved the numbers drop dramatically down to 30%- i wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea that a race with 45 laps to go was Massa's in the bag & certainly not confident enough to annul it
Let's agree to disagree and have a nice Easter break!
It looks to me as if Piquet Sr only spoke to Charlie Whiting in Brazil because he was scared of what would happen to Piquet Jr if it came out at some point. He provided no concrete evidence, so Whiting couldn't take any further action beyond advising Moseley. Information helpful to an investigation perhaps, but no guarantee anything would come of it; Piquet Jr wasn't going to confess in 2008, whilst he had an F1 drive; he only confessed when Briatore sacked him in 2009, to p!ss them off.
Eccleston also said "Back then, there was a rule that a world championship classification after the FIA awards ceremony at the end of the year was untouchable." If you believe Ecclestons views on the crash & cover up, you're also accepting his word on the rule about the classification being untouchable, surely... hence there's no realistic way of Massa ever getting what he wants.
Eccleston also said "Back then, there was a rule that a world championship classification after the FIA awards ceremony at the end of the year was untouchable." If you believe Ecclestons views on the crash & cover up, you're also accepting his word on the rule about the classification being untouchable, surely... hence there's no realistic way of Massa ever getting what he wants.
GMT13 said:
Hamilton crossed the line first in Spa that year and had the win taken away post race in one of the most ridiculous stewarding decisions I can remember.
The argument was that he hadn't sufficiently handed the place back to raikkonen after cutting the last chicane before re overtaking him.
Fair enough I guess. But half way round the following lap Hamilton was forced onto the grass by a slow moving back marker and Raikkonen retook the lead. Raikkonen then led for 1 corner before doing a 360 pirouette and handing the lead back to Hamilton. 3 corners later raikkonen bins it. So Hamilton did relinquish the place fully by going onto the grass, I could never understand why that part was never mentioned. Even in the ensuing court case I don't remember it being referenced.
That 'win' for Massa was an absolute robbery.
It was a joke result but I'd say you have to willingly give up the position. Being pushed off by another car wont count. The argument was that he hadn't sufficiently handed the place back to raikkonen after cutting the last chicane before re overtaking him.
Fair enough I guess. But half way round the following lap Hamilton was forced onto the grass by a slow moving back marker and Raikkonen retook the lead. Raikkonen then led for 1 corner before doing a 360 pirouette and handing the lead back to Hamilton. 3 corners later raikkonen bins it. So Hamilton did relinquish the place fully by going onto the grass, I could never understand why that part was never mentioned. Even in the ensuing court case I don't remember it being referenced.
That 'win' for Massa was an absolute robbery.
pablo said:
And what difference would it make?
Would he sleep better?
Would he be taken seriously?
Would Verstappen fans knock one out each night looking at Hamilton’s Wikipedia page now amended to show just six titles?
Just embarrassing behaviour from the bitterest man in F1.
I mentioned to a colleague a couple of weeks ago that Verstappen is in a relationship with the sister of the driver who drove into the barriers in Singapore in 2008.Would he sleep better?
Would he be taken seriously?
Would Verstappen fans knock one out each night looking at Hamilton’s Wikipedia page now amended to show just six titles?
Just embarrassing behaviour from the bitterest man in F1.
Wasn't 2008 the year Hamilton got penalised for racing Raikkonen at Spa?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7njqB0G0-aE
nickfrog said:
Yes I agree.
Hopefully you can move on from 2021 before 2036 Phil
(I also agree with you on 2021 btw, I just think we can't change the past either in this case sadly, and no I am not comparing the two cases).
I'll have it sorted by 2035... Nail the lid down more firmly if I don't Hopefully you can move on from 2021 before 2036 Phil
(I also agree with you on 2021 btw, I just think we can't change the past either in this case sadly, and no I am not comparing the two cases).
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