The Official 2018 German Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

[anonymous-user]

HustleRussell said:

I agree but the new kid had two offs on Sunday which will give Marchionne’s replacement just the excuse he needs to bottle it and re-sign Kimi. I hope I’m wrong.

Brundle was saying the new Ferrari boss wouldn't want to start his role by replacing people. Might be that is what is needed though.

[Sam993]

How much of Kimi's relative lack of performance is caused by his skills rather than the team's focus on supporting Vettel? Based on Ferrari's history, I reckon it's the latter.

[Dr Z]

Deesee said:

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

I think it's not worded well; meant to say unlimited energy flow allowed from H -> ES and/or H -> K

The energy flow diagram in the regs support this:

[Oilchange]

Kimi keeps the points coming in and is a good team mate, I reckon they'll re sign him.

[swisstoni]

HustleRussell said:

LDN said:

Kimi might be at Ferrari next year: as it suits Vettel. But I hope they get the new kid in.

I agree but the new kid had two offs on Sunday which will give Marchionne’s replacement just the excuse he needs to bottle it and re-sign Kimi. I hope I’m wrong.

No1 Driver had a bit of an off himself.

[Matthen]

Dr Z said:

Deesee said:

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

I think it's not worded well; meant to say unlimited energy flow allowed from H -> ES and/or H -> K

The energy flow diagram in the regs support this:

Interesting, thank you for sharing that.

[Seek]

Dr Z said:

Also, anything that involves the battery has a bottleneck, so I don't quite follow how the twin battery setup can yield more deployment if at the end, the energy had to be deployed from the battery.

A twin battery setup could be used in the following unsporting manner.

Battery 2 is used solely for 'powering' the MGU-H, which then directly or indirectly reroutes power to MGU-K.
This would not be limited by the regulations for energy transfer other than the minimum/maximum state of charge of 4MJ.
The energy flow from ES -> MGU-H could be routed to anywhere in MGU-H, pressure charging system or engine to be 'regenerated' and then routed to MGU-K.

If one were cynical it could be claimed that battery 2 is in fact part of MGU-H and fed by battery 1, thereby sidestepping the regulations on minimum/maximum state of charge of battery 2 and energy transfer from ES -> MGU-K.

[Deesee]

Matthen said:

Dr Z said:

Deesee said:

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

I think it's not worded well; meant to say unlimited energy flow allowed from H -> ES and/or H -> K

The energy flow diagram in the regs support this:

Interesting, thank you for sharing that.

Thanks DRZ, great diagram, I hope there are 4 sensors on the mgu control, although I’d say there’s probably only 2.

[Sam993]

Dr Z said:

I think it's not worded well; meant to say unlimited energy flow allowed from H -> ES and/or H -> K

The energy flow diagram in the regs support this:

What a LOAD OF wk. Has anyone found any use for this nonsense in a mass produced road car scenario? Either go fully electric or keep F1 100% ICE.

[Deesee]

Seek said:

Dr Z said:

Also, anything that involves the battery has a bottleneck, so I don't quite follow how the twin battery setup can yield more deployment if at the end, the energy had to be deployed from the battery.

A twin battery setup could be used in the following unsporting manner.

Battery 2 is used solely for 'powering' the MGU-H, which then directly or indirectly reroutes power to MGU-K.
This would not be limited by the regulations for energy transfer other than the minimum/maximum state of charge of 4MJ.
The energy flow from ES -> MGU-H could be routed to anywhere in MGU-H, pressure charging system or engine to be 'regenerated' and then routed to MGU-K.

If one were cynical it could be claimed that battery 2 is in fact part of MGU-H and fed by battery 1, thereby sidestepping the regulations on minimum/maximum state of charge of battery 2 and energy transfer from ES -> MGU-K.

Interesting, and could be the mystery lever on Vettels stearing wheel.

Vettels Ferrari seems to pull away at 250kph + according to the Merc/red bull GPS. If they have found a way to retain excess MGU h in the engine management once the ES is full and deliver the excess on demand, but apparently it’s just not stored “anywhere”.

[travel is dangerous]

Deesee said:

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

I’m not an expert but I think they could use some wiresZ

[RichB]

Sam993 said:

What a LOAD OF wk. Has anyone found any use for this nonsense in a mass produced road car scenario? Either go fully electric or keep F1 100% ICE.

Without digressing, may I politely disagree. To me hybrid is by far the better solution for anything other than a town car and ultimately technology like this will make its way into sports cars.

[Sam993]

RichB said:

Sam993 said:

What a LOAD OF wk. Has anyone found any use for this nonsense in a mass produced road car scenario? Either go fully electric or keep F1 100% ICE.

Without digressing, may I politely disagree. To me hybrid is by far the better solution for anything other than a town car and ultimately technology like this will make its way into sports cars.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, I love hybrids, especially the Toyota/Lexus flavour... which run on technology that predates current PU's by 18 years and which is what (roughly) KERS originally was about, pre 2014.
Current F1 PU isn't that though, it has zero real life application and brought negligible progress to mass produced road cars. It's an unnecessary end of the road circle jerk that made the cars sound like st, it made them complex (in order to drive down costs, lul) and I doubt anyone at Renault, Honda, Mercedes and Fiat cares about it anymore and most teams wish it never happened. It's a perfect example of why change for the sake of change is rarely a good thing.

[HustleRussell]

Sam993 said:

I doubt anyone at Renault, Honda, Mercedes and Fiat cares about it anymore and most teams wish it never happened.

Which is why everyone with the possible exception of Renault are is lobbying to retain the current PUs or something very close with minimal technical change?

Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 24th July 17:26

[rdjohn]

HustleRussell said:

Which is why everyone with the possible exception of Renault are lobbying to retain the current PUs or something very close with minimal technical change?

That has far more to do with keeping riff-raff like Aston Martin, Cosworth and Porsche out of F1.

Its is dead-end technology for mass car producers. So they are pretty much like every other F1 engine built in the last 40-years. You never got DFVs being used in road cars, whereas turbos will be on virtually every clean engine before too long.

[HustleRussell]

rdjohn said:

HustleRussell said:

Which is why everyone with the possible exception of Renault are lobbying to retain the current PUs or something very close with minimal technical change?

That has far more to do with keeping riff-raff like Aston Martin, Cosworth and Porsche out of F1.

Its is dead-end technology for mass car producers. So they are pretty much like every other F1 engine built in the last 40-years. You never got DFVs being used in road cars, whereas turbos will be on virtually every clean engine before too long.

Also wrong, a template for a new simplified engine formula has floating since last year and still no other engine manufacturers want to join in.

[ajprice]

[Sam993]

rdjohn said:

HustleRussell said:

Which is why everyone with the possible exception of Renault are lobbying to retain the current PUs or something very close with minimal technical change?

That has far more to do with keeping riff-raff like Aston Martin, Cosworth and Porsche out of F1.

Its is dead-end technology for mass car producers. So they are pretty much like every other F1 engine built in the last 40-years. You never got DFVs being used in road cars, whereas turbos will be on virtually every clean engine before too long.

Hey maaaaan, how does it feel being able to time travel? Here in 2018 turbos have been the staple of "clean" motoring for close to 30 years now. VAG was one of the pioneers back in the 90's with their Golf Umwelt where turbos were mainly used to reduce emissions rather than improve performance. It's not all that great though, our F1 cars sound like st and are unnecessarily complex because someone thought it will be great idea if we pretend that we care about environment by still using ICE's but add metric stton of batteries, generators and turbos to pretend like we don't (but luckily we also have a thing called Formula E, which is where the actual future happens)

[Vaud]

HustleRussell said:

Also wrong, a template for a new simplified engine formula has floating since last year and still no other engine manufacturers want to join in.

A template still subject to negotiation. No one will commit or not commit until everything is locked. By which time there won't be time.

[Deesee]

travel is dangerous said:

I’m not an expert but I think they could use some wiresZ

?