The Official 2016 German Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
hairyben said:
Yeah maybe its b
ks. But in the time I've been watching F1, since about 91, they've never not been an ultra competitive team winning and at least challenging for titles... after 07 they kind of dropped the ball, firstly they turned out great cars but poor leadership/tactics essentially throwing away race wins and titles and then been on a glide path to nothing. And seemingly with no idea of where they really are in the scheme of things, thinking they're still a hotshot team that can mess drivers around at will....
They did pretty well in the Hakkinen years and also came close in 2005 with Kimi. If his car had been more reliable that year he would have won the championship.ks. But in the time I've been watching F1, since about 91, they've never not been an ultra competitive team winning and at least challenging for titles... after 07 they kind of dropped the ball, firstly they turned out great cars but poor leadership/tactics essentially throwing away race wins and titles and then been on a glide path to nothing. And seemingly with no idea of where they really are in the scheme of things, thinking they're still a hotshot team that can mess drivers around at will....I think the problem since 2009 has partly been technical (though it was in 2013-4 as by that time Mercedes knew they were leaving and did not necessarily give them the same engine) but primarily management.
I think Ron coming back is a good thing. He is a very tough and uncompromising guy but also very successful and knows exactly how to achieve results. Eric Boullier is also a very good guy and Jost Capito will be on board in a few weeks. These are all guys who have a long track record of success in Motorsport.
McLaren is an independent company, financially strong, and does not have to answer to a Fiat or Mercedes board for everything. Honda is an engine supplier but has no influence on management, quite the opposite in fact, McLaren had the top man at Honda changed last year as Ron felt progress was not made quickly enough.
The building blocks are still being set down but I think McLaren are going to surprise a lot of people next year.
Alonso also seems very sure of this and he has repeatedly said so in dozens of interviews (while the dimwits at Sky are blubbing on about him quitting).
Edited by cgt2 on Monday 1st August 20:00
cgt2 said:
If McLaren can capture James Allison it will be a real coup but remember they have already had Peter Prodromou at work on the new car/regs for some time now and he was Adrian Newey's aerodynamicist during all those years of Red Bull domination.
Next year will be his first complete design for McLaren (I think he joined too late to fully do this years car) and while his name is not that very well known, he has a huge track record of success.
But I think it is widely understood that the McLaren issue is not the aero/chassis (although it contributes) but the power, delivery and power recovery - which is out of his hands?Next year will be his first complete design for McLaren (I think he joined too late to fully do this years car) and while his name is not that very well known, he has a huge track record of success.
Vaud said:
But I think it is widely understood that the McLaren issue is not the aero/chassis (although it contributes) but the power, delivery and power recovery - which is out of his hands?
I think it was all of it to be honest, but they appear to be getting on top of chassis/aero this year. Honda have improved massively but are still a bit behind, big upgrade conning for spa apparently.e21Mark said:
Watched the hi lights on the F1 website this morning. Just over 5 minutes, so am assuming it wasn't a particularly enthralling race? I though Rosberg didn't deserve the 5 sec penalty for geeing his elbows out. I hope he can take the fight to Hamilton but won't get my hopes up.
Depends who's highlights you watched I guess. Can't see how 5 mins can accurately reflect what happened.cgt2 said:
hairyben said:
Yeah maybe its bks. But in the time I've been watching F1, since about 91, they've never not been an ultra competitive team winning and at least challenging for titles... after 07 they kind of dropped the ball, firstly they turned out great cars but poor leadership/tactics essentially throwing away race wins and titles and then been on a glide path to nothing. And seemingly with no idea of where they really are in the scheme of things, thinking they're still a hotshot team that can mess drivers around at will....
They did pretty well in the Hakkinen years and also came close in 2005 with Kimi. If his car had been more reliable that year he would have won the championship.ks. But in the time I've been watching F1, since about 91, they've never not been an ultra competitive team winning and at least challenging for titles... after 07 they kind of dropped the ball, firstly they turned out great cars but poor leadership/tactics essentially throwing away race wins and titles and then been on a glide path to nothing. And seemingly with no idea of where they really are in the scheme of things, thinking they're still a hotshot team that can mess drivers around at will....I think the problem since 2009 has partly been technical (though it was in 2013-4 as by that time Mercedes knew they were leaving and did not necessarily give them the same engine) but primarily management.
I think Ron coming back is a good thing. He is a very tough and uncompromising guy but also very successful and knows exactly how to achieve results. Eric Boullier is also a very good guy and Jost Capito will be on board in a few weeks. These are all guys who have a long track record of success in Motorsport.
McLaren is an independent company, financially strong, and does not have to answer to a Fiat or Mercedes board for everything. Honda is an engine supplier but has no influence on management, quite the opposite in fact, McLaren had the top man at Honda changed last year as Ron felt progress was not made quickly enough.
The building blocks are still being set down but I think McLaren are going to surprise a lot of people next year.
Alonso also seems very sure of this and he has repeatedly said so in dozens of interviews (while the dimwits at Sky are blubbing on about him quitting).
Edited by cgt2 on Monday 1st August 20:00
Mclaren were very strong partner with Mercedes, so why wouldnt they let the tiny, useless, ex-Honda team use their engines in 2009?? As Brawn they won the WDC, rebranded as Mercedes and became the preferred engine supplier, elbowing Mclaren out of the way to become a customer.
As you've said the building blocks are there, and I hope Mclaren can get their mojo back. But I am a SWilliams fan, and I still hope they can too.
As far as Williams are concerned, I agree with Ron Dennis' comments regards being the factory engine team. Without being the preferred engine partner, you have an uphill chance of success now.
Yes, Red Bull are an anomaly, however they've not fought against a parent in Renault with the same stability or resources as Mercedes or Ferrari. Not to mention RB have some formidable resources and a sugar daddy that most teams do not, as in they're atypical.
If Mercedes at some stage pulls out as a full team, it would be great to see Williams get the main player gig with manufacturer support.
Yes, Red Bull are an anomaly, however they've not fought against a parent in Renault with the same stability or resources as Mercedes or Ferrari. Not to mention RB have some formidable resources and a sugar daddy that most teams do not, as in they're atypical.
If Mercedes at some stage pulls out as a full team, it would be great to see Williams get the main player gig with manufacturer support.
McLaren had a very good car in 2012, especially towards the end of the season. Then, bizarely, they decided that rather than evolve the 2012 car for the 2013 season like everyone else, in anticipation of the 2014 regs, they'd take a gamble and do an all-new car just for 2013. And it was a dog. And then the Honda thing happened for 2014 onwards.
I have no doubt whatsoever that they can be great again. Unlike Williams, they have the funds to do it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that they can be great again. Unlike Williams, they have the funds to do it.
Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Monday 1st August 20:57
williamp said:
The £100m fine in 2007 must have really stung, regardless of what they said. Ans Ron standing down, when Mclaren pretty much was Ron, how could they not lose their way?? ...
Mclaren were very strong partner with Mercedes, so why wouldnt they let the tiny, useless, ex-Honda team use their engines in 2009?? As Brawn they won the WDC, rebranded as Mercedes and became the preferred engine supplier, elbowing Mclaren out of the way to become a customer.
As you've said the building blocks are there, and I hope Mclaren can get their mojo back. But I am a SWilliams fan, and I still hope they can too.
I'm a McLaren fan but admire Williams as well. The backbone of the sport. Mclaren were very strong partner with Mercedes, so why wouldnt they let the tiny, useless, ex-Honda team use their engines in 2009?? As Brawn they won the WDC, rebranded as Mercedes and became the preferred engine supplier, elbowing Mclaren out of the way to become a customer.
As you've said the building blocks are there, and I hope Mclaren can get their mojo back. But I am a SWilliams fan, and I still hope they can too.
I think it was a $50m net, and knowing Dennis there would be some very legal fiddle on that sum.
The Stepneygate fiasco brought the whole management of F1 into disrepute. The McLaren rejection of the findings in the letter from their lawyers, although signed by someone else, was described by a civil lawyer friend of mine as a classic. The wording, she said, was perfect. Mosley failed to respond to it, even having to accept that Dennis did not know anything of the matter for which the fine was imposed. Dennis knew nothing of the betrayal by one of his trusted staff. There was another rejection of the findings by Dennis when Alonso, one of the two drivers who cheated but was let off by Mosely because he and de la Rosa were guilty, was taken on again.
The threads that criticise Hamilton should remember his behaviour at the time. I was quite impressed by his actions, risky given Mosley's power in those days.
The sport has moved on from then, the only thing holding it back is Ecclestone and the lack of plan for when he 'goes'. I've not got great hopes for the 2017 formula but with a bit of luck it might mean that other teams are able to challenge Merc. But a dominant team has been the norm since the end of the DFV supremacy. And even then, there were years when some specific cars was untouchable.
We can hope. Mind you, I reckon this and the previous seasons have been great, and I was one of the new formula's critics before it started, not expecting the inspired leadership of Wolff allowing his drivers to race.
When you compare the period to the Schumacher era, with special tyres, special consideration, and special money for Ferrari, only the last remaining now, we are blessed. Even further back there were times when the racing was dire compared to nowadays.
The last race wasn't particularly memorable, apart from the resurgence of RB. But we've had some cracking races so far in 2016, with lots to discuss and argue over. Isn't that the point? A season where the rules are going to be changed is normally a bit odd and uninspired due to the lack of interest in development. That's why, I think, McLaren are improving. They bring changes at each race it seems.
Mercedes actually had a shareholding in McLaren. The Brawn deal was put together literally weeks before the season began and were it not for the genius of Ross and his double diffuser there is no way that car should have been ahead of the McLaren.
The Mercedes return was done after they saw that a team other than McLaren could win and they knew they could buy the team for a fraction of their McLaren investment. The return of Schumacher was also a big factor in this.
Whilst Mercedes would of course deny it, McLaren were very clear that in 2013-4 their Mercedes engines were significantly down on the works power units and they were already working with Honda on the 2014 regs but a year behind (hence 2015 entry).
Mercedes threw a huge amount of development into the 2014 hybrid engines, at least a year before anyone else, and had a two year start over Honda.
For Honda to be where they are now, in relative terms, with a two year deficit, is actually pretty impressive, though it may not look it now.
A team with the talented resources and money of McLaren will always be a threat and there are many signs it is going to happen again.
In a way I equate where they are now wit the mid-90s. When Honda left they spent a few years in the doldrums with Peugeot and Ford before joining with Mercedes for engines. It took them three years to get it right but Mercedes, Hakkinen and Newey all came together perfectly for 1998 - 2000.
Substitute Honda, Alonso and Prodromou for the above and the recipe/strategy is very similar.
The Mercedes return was done after they saw that a team other than McLaren could win and they knew they could buy the team for a fraction of their McLaren investment. The return of Schumacher was also a big factor in this.
Whilst Mercedes would of course deny it, McLaren were very clear that in 2013-4 their Mercedes engines were significantly down on the works power units and they were already working with Honda on the 2014 regs but a year behind (hence 2015 entry).
Mercedes threw a huge amount of development into the 2014 hybrid engines, at least a year before anyone else, and had a two year start over Honda.
For Honda to be where they are now, in relative terms, with a two year deficit, is actually pretty impressive, though it may not look it now.
A team with the talented resources and money of McLaren will always be a threat and there are many signs it is going to happen again.
In a way I equate where they are now wit the mid-90s. When Honda left they spent a few years in the doldrums with Peugeot and Ford before joining with Mercedes for engines. It took them three years to get it right but Mercedes, Hakkinen and Newey all came together perfectly for 1998 - 2000.
Substitute Honda, Alonso and Prodromou for the above and the recipe/strategy is very similar.
Derek Smith said:
I'm a McLaren fan but admire Williams as well. The backbone of the sport.
I think it was a $50m net, and knowing Dennis there would be some very legal fiddle on that sum.
The Stepneygate fiasco brought the whole management of F1 into disrepute. The McLaren rejection of the findings in the letter from their lawyers, although signed by someone else, was described by a civil lawyer friend of mine as a classic. The wording, she said, was perfect. Mosley failed to respond to it, even having to accept that Dennis did not know anything of the matter for which the fine was imposed. Dennis knew nothing of the betrayal by one of his trusted staff. There was another rejection of the findings by Dennis when Alonso, one of the two drivers who cheated but was let off by Mosely because he and de la Rosa were guilty, was taken on again.
The threads that criticise Hamilton should remember his behaviour at the time. I was quite impressed by his actions, risky given Mosley's power in those days.
The sport has moved on from then, the only thing holding it back is Ecclestone and the lack of plan for when he 'goes'. I've not got great hopes for the 2017 formula but with a bit of luck it might mean that other teams are able to challenge Merc. But a dominant team has been the norm since the end of the DFV supremacy. And even then, there were years when some specific cars was untouchable.
We can hope. Mind you, I reckon this and the previous seasons have been great, and I was one of the new formula's critics before it started, not expecting the inspired leadership of Wolff allowing his drivers to race.
When you compare the period to the Schumacher era, with special tyres, special consideration, and special money for Ferrari, only the last remaining now, we are blessed. Even further back there were times when the racing was dire compared to nowadays.
The last race wasn't particularly memorable, apart from the resurgence of RB. But we've had some cracking races so far in 2016, with lots to discuss and argue over. Isn't that the point? A season where the rules are going to be changed is normally a bit odd and uninspired due to the lack of interest in development. That's why, I think, McLaren are improving. They bring changes at each race it seems.
Good post. I think it was a $50m net, and knowing Dennis there would be some very legal fiddle on that sum.
The Stepneygate fiasco brought the whole management of F1 into disrepute. The McLaren rejection of the findings in the letter from their lawyers, although signed by someone else, was described by a civil lawyer friend of mine as a classic. The wording, she said, was perfect. Mosley failed to respond to it, even having to accept that Dennis did not know anything of the matter for which the fine was imposed. Dennis knew nothing of the betrayal by one of his trusted staff. There was another rejection of the findings by Dennis when Alonso, one of the two drivers who cheated but was let off by Mosely because he and de la Rosa were guilty, was taken on again.
The threads that criticise Hamilton should remember his behaviour at the time. I was quite impressed by his actions, risky given Mosley's power in those days.
The sport has moved on from then, the only thing holding it back is Ecclestone and the lack of plan for when he 'goes'. I've not got great hopes for the 2017 formula but with a bit of luck it might mean that other teams are able to challenge Merc. But a dominant team has been the norm since the end of the DFV supremacy. And even then, there were years when some specific cars was untouchable.
We can hope. Mind you, I reckon this and the previous seasons have been great, and I was one of the new formula's critics before it started, not expecting the inspired leadership of Wolff allowing his drivers to race.
When you compare the period to the Schumacher era, with special tyres, special consideration, and special money for Ferrari, only the last remaining now, we are blessed. Even further back there were times when the racing was dire compared to nowadays.
The last race wasn't particularly memorable, apart from the resurgence of RB. But we've had some cracking races so far in 2016, with lots to discuss and argue over. Isn't that the point? A season where the rules are going to be changed is normally a bit odd and uninspired due to the lack of interest in development. That's why, I think, McLaren are improving. They bring changes at each race it seems.
Can you remind me of Hamilton's stance during "Stepneygate"? (when will journalists, particularly F1 journalists, come up with another suffix for scandals?).
I agree, the lack of succession planning for FOM is a worry, and what also worried me was the huge number of empty seats in Germany - entire blocks of grandstand covered in Rolex banners - this at the "home" grand prix of the current world champion constructor, a current world drivers' championship contender and a 4-time word champion driver. Oh, and a supposedly up-and-coming driver in one of the Manors. Bear in mind also that German F1 fans had had a year without a Grand Prix to go and watch. When ticket sales are about the only revenue stream which FOM will let the circuits keep (whilst still expecting traditional venues which are not being funded by governments) to provide fabulous, up-to-the-minute facilities.
NJK44 said:
hairyben said:
Hes the dani pedrosa of f1.
Pedrosa is likeable though If he'd had the good car when he was team mate to Schumacher, he could be a multiple WDC.
I know it's all ifs and buts, but it just goes to show the fine margins that can make a huge difference to your career.
VladD said:
I'm a Hamilton supporter, but I still like Nico. You can't blame him for being a bit arsey. He's team mate to a twilight Schumacher and beats him easily, but isn't in a good enough car. Then he gets a good enough car and gets Hamilton as a team mate.
If he'd had the good car when he was team mate to Schumacher, he could be a multiple WDC.
I know it's all ifs and buts, but it just goes to show the fine margins that can make a huge difference to your career.
If anyone really studied the comparative performance of Rosberg and Schumacher in 2012, MS was actually performing better for most of the year. The points table did also reflect this until mid season. If he'd had the good car when he was team mate to Schumacher, he could be a multiple WDC.
I know it's all ifs and buts, but it just goes to show the fine margins that can make a huge difference to your career.
MS had a lot of unreliability and made a couple of mistakes of his own but I remember watching the split times and more often than not that year MS was in front, Rosberg was ahead in 2010 and 2011 though.
Rosberg is a good driver. Not top drawer but better than average. But he lacks racecraft which is a big minus at the top level. He also has a very smug entitled rich kid attitude and refuses to accept mistakes such as Sunday. A bit of humility and not patronising fans with stupid comments would increase his fan base massively.
Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 2nd August 10:09
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