RE: No predictability in 2014 F1

[urquattro]

John_S4x4 said:

If it was me, I would like to see F1 cars with 5000cc V8's limitted to 8,000rpm with no engine covers or air boxes allowed, only inlet trumpets allowed. No turbos either. You can have your sponsership on the engine cam covers though.

Can Am cars, where are you and the brave guys who drive/drove them fearlessly.

[CBR JGWRR]

F1GTRUeno said:

Is there a power limit next year? Haven't actually read up. Hopefully there isn't and they can just go gung-ho.

I seriously think bodywise they should just go back to the late 80's/early 90's and have simple shapes that looked good and weren't so amazing aerodynamically that nobody could pass.

F1 is all about progress though so there's no way that'd ever happen.

Technically yes, 650 odd bhp at 12 thou rpm due to the fuel flow rate. Or thereabouts.

[dc2rr07]

CBR JGWRR said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Is there a power limit next year? Haven't actually read up. Hopefully there isn't and they can just go gung-ho.

I seriously think bodywise they should just go back to the late 80's/early 90's and have simple shapes that looked good and weren't so amazing aerodynamically that nobody could pass.

F1 is all about progress though so there's no way that'd ever happen.

Technically yes, 650 odd bhp at 12 thou rpm due to the fuel flow rate. Or thereabouts.

Would imagine the rev limit will be a lot higher than 12000 !

[CBR JGWRR]

dc2rr07 said:

Would imagine the rev limit will be a lot higher than 12000 !

Rev limit is 15 thou, but fuel efficiency drops too much by 15 thou.

[gaz1234]

fk f1. stick them all in karts.

[dtrump]

For sure they will be very advanced engines and be impressive on how they sip sip their fuel....

but, the efficiency however amazing it is.......... just isnt that 'exciting'

I hope next season wont be full of dull Sundays with people at the end trying to explain 'no no it IS uhmazing because look how little fuel Red Bull used, and with 700bhp!.....incredible!'


....also, with only 5 engines, my guess is that the teams wont push it to the absolute max as they should in F1 just in case they get a penalty if something goes wrong.
So the engines wont get fully pushed and therefore probably wont go pop at all

[CraigyMc]

gaz1234 said:

fk f1. stick them all in karts.

Vitantonio Liuzzi would have been world champion, from the guys that made it to F1.

Or you'd have David Fore obliterating all of them, if you let actual karting guys in.

[STA5H]

Get rid of all the techno nonsense and give them old school type 70s racers .then see who can drive.

[RYH64E]

Typical F1 logic, costs are too high and many teams are struggling financilly, so... let's introduce completely new engines and chassis for 2014. I guess the increased fuel efficiency will cover the design and development costs, in about eleventy million years.

[CraigyMc]

RYH64E said:

Typical F1 logic, costs are too high and many teams are struggling financilly, so... let's introduce completely new engines and chassis for 2014. I guess the increased fuel efficiency will cover the design and development costs, in about eleventy million years.

The fuel is free anyway, and they use umpteen times as much freighing the contents of the pitlane from place to place as the cars will ever use. It's all political nonsense.

Given a free hand, Bernie would have everyone running V12s.

[shoestring7]

GroundEffect said:

Here is one of the best previews as to how they will sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmKJ5MhDh8

Not quite what we have today, but sound good enough.

For reference, that 1988 car has a 1.5 Honda V6 Twin-Turbo limited to 2.5bar, producing 675BHP - 2014 engines will produce around 600BHP from their single turbo units and with single exhaust outlet they will sound a bit higher pitched.

Edited by GroundEffect on Monday 4th November 14:48

Thanks. Its been tough reading posts from 12 year old stating that a 1600 turbo F1 is certain to be crap when you can remember 1500cc 4 bangers pumping out 1500bhp and sounding like the hounds of hell (before the bores went oval and they blew up 10 miles later).

SS7

Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 4th November 21:02

[gaz1234]

CraigyMc said:

Vitantonio Liuzzi would have been world champion, from the guys that made it to F1.

Or you'd have David Fore obliterating all of them, if you let actual karting guys in.

liuizzi? explain

[GroundEffect]

shoestring7 said:

GroundEffect said:

Here is one of the best previews as to how they will sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmKJ5MhDh8

Not quite what we have today, but sound good enough.

For reference, that 1988 car has a 1.5 Honda V6 Twin-Turbo limited to 2.5bar, producing 675BHP - 2014 engines will produce around 600BHP from their single turbo units and with single exhaust outlet they will sound a bit higher pitched.

Edited by GroundEffect on Monday 4th November 14:48

Thanks. Its been tough reading posts from 12 year old stating that a 1600 turbo F1 is certain to be crap when you can remember 1500cc 4 bangers pumping out 1500bhp and sounding like the hounds of hell (before the bores went oval and they blew up 10 miles later).

SS7

Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 4th November 21:02

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

[TB Rich]

TWPC said:

Munter said:

TWPC said:

Good idea.

I'm not sure having the championship decided entirely by engine tech is any better than this year's situation where having Adrian Newey seemed to be the distinguishing factor. There's a thread over at Motor Sport agonising over this season following an article by Andrew Frankel entitled "Something has to be done in Formula 1". See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/opinion/something-has-to-be-done/ .

A lot of the chat there is how to make the racing more exciting, more dependent on the driver's skill & how to facilitate overtaking.

My proposed formula was:

Ban wings.
All cars must have flat bottoms & a limited ride height.
Limit tyre sizes.
No limits on engine size or power
Ban KERS, DRS and anything but manual gearboxes.
Raise the minimum weight to lessen the disadvantage suffered by large drivers.
Retain rules that mean the cars remain open wheel single seaters (look good & aerodynamically poor)

I'd simplify it.

Wheels to be open. No canopy/roof. Must fit in a specified size of "box". And restricted to a specified number of calories of energy. Add in some crash tests.

But the costs would be horrendous.

What I do find interesting is it appears to be the people who don't like what we have got, that are the most adverse to any change. It's almost as if the'd complain about anything....

I think you need to have something to remove the aerodynamic advantage of the leading car, hence my point about flat bottoms/no wings.

The costs of an unlimited engine formula could indeed be horrendous, but I don't think any more so than a regulated formula. Without a budget cap the richest team will always seek to exploit its advantage.

Agree with your comment about the bizarre opposition to change...

Absolutely agree. I've been saying this for years, the high turbulent air issue is what has really killed the close racing and everything they have introduced like DRS, KERS and silly engineered tyre degradation doesn't solve this fundamental problem. Most of the overtaking now happens in the pit window trying to get a jump - that's not racing Bernie!!

Ditch the conventional aero they have now and re-introduce ground effects aero. This means we can still have the levels of speed maintained but I understand doesn't cause anywhere near the levels of turbulent air behind the car. If at all possible introduce a cap on that amount of down force KG.

To ditch all forms of high down force wouldn't wash with the masses I feel.

[shoestring7]

GroundEffect said:

shoestring7 said:

GroundEffect said:

Here is one of the best previews as to how they will sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmKJ5MhDh8

Not quite what we have today, but sound good enough.

For reference, that 1988 car has a 1.5 Honda V6 Twin-Turbo limited to 2.5bar, producing 675BHP - 2014 engines will produce around 600BHP from their single turbo units and with single exhaust outlet they will sound a bit higher pitched.

Edited by GroundEffect on Monday 4th November 14:48

Thanks. Its been tough reading posts from 12 year old stating that a 1600 turbo F1 is certain to be crap when you can remember 1500cc 4 bangers pumping out 1500bhp and sounding like the hounds of hell (before the bores went oval and they blew up 10 miles later).

SS7

Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 4th November 21:02

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

Extrapolate a BMW running a 5.5 - 6 bar on a 85% toluene fuel.

SS7

[Justaredbadge]

GroundEffect said:

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

None of the.engine manufacturers back then had a dyno that went above 1100hp. They could max it out and guess the power curve and estimate peak power, but they couldn't be exact about it.

[CraigyMc]

gaz1234 said:

CraigyMc said:

Vitantonio Liuzzi would have been world champion, from the guys that made it to F1.

Or you'd have David Fore obliterating all of them, if you let actual karting guys in.

liuizzi? explain

Odd, I know.

Liuzzi was karting world champion (a few F1 drivers have been) - but after his F1 journey ended he went back to it. He never really left. When Schumacher was coming back to F1, he was practising with Liuzzi in KZ2's (125cc 2-stroke, 6-speed gearbox, soft tyres). In general when a bunch of F1 guys get back in karts, Liuzzi usually does well.

He seems to be a lot better in karts than in cars, relatively speaking.

[CraigyMc]

Justaredbadge said:

GroundEffect said:

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

None of the.engine manufacturers back then had a dyno that went above 1100hp. They could max it out and guess the power curve and estimate peak power, but they couldn't be exact about it.

Pub fact. Also wrong.

[CraigyMc]

GroundEffect said:

shoestring7 said:

GroundEffect said:

Here is one of the best previews as to how they will sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmKJ5MhDh8

Not quite what we have today, but sound good enough.

For reference, that 1988 car has a 1.5 Honda V6 Twin-Turbo limited to 2.5bar, producing 675BHP - 2014 engines will produce around 600BHP from their single turbo units and with single exhaust outlet they will sound a bit higher pitched.

Edited by GroundEffect on Monday 4th November 14:48

Thanks. Its been tough reading posts from 12 year old stating that a 1600 turbo F1 is certain to be crap when you can remember 1500cc 4 bangers pumping out 1500bhp and sounding like the hounds of hell (before the bores went oval and they blew up 10 miles later).

SS7

Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 4th November 21:02

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

The images I posted a while back (you know, the one with 1350bhp on the factsheet) were from BMWs stand at the Festival of Speed in 2003.

[GroundEffect]

Justaredbadge said:

GroundEffect said:

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

None of the.engine manufacturers back then had a dyno that went above 1100hp. They could max it out and guess the power curve and estimate peak power, but they couldn't be exact about it.

This was an engine redone in the last 10 years on a dyno. Not at the time. And it's pretty easy to calculate actual power without using a dyno, assuming you have enough engine data.

CraigyMc said:

GroundEffect said:

shoestring7 said:

GroundEffect said:

Here is one of the best previews as to how they will sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmKJ5MhDh8

Not quite what we have today, but sound good enough.

For reference, that 1988 car has a 1.5 Honda V6 Twin-Turbo limited to 2.5bar, producing 675BHP - 2014 engines will produce around 600BHP from their single turbo units and with single exhaust outlet they will sound a bit higher pitched.

Edited by GroundEffect on Monday 4th November 14:48

Thanks. Its been tough reading posts from 12 year old stating that a 1600 turbo F1 is certain to be crap when you can remember 1500cc 4 bangers pumping out 1500bhp and sounding like the hounds of hell (before the bores went oval and they blew up 10 miles later).

SS7

Edited by shoestring7 on Monday 4th November 21:02

1500BHP? These things seem to gain BHP every year since they were retired! The only reliable numbers I have is 1050PS for the 1987 Honda engine at 4 bar. You could extrapolate that to just over 1100BHP at 5bar in qualifying.

The images I posted a while back (you know, the one with 1350bhp on the factsheet) were from BMWs stand at the Festival of Speed in 2003.

Wouldn't be the first engine manufacturer to bend the truth a little I know the BMW produced the greatest amount of power but 200BHP more than the Honda? Doubt it.