Massa 2008 World Champion?

[nickfrog]

PhilAsia said:

I'll have it sorted by 2035... Nail the lid down more firmly if I don't

[anonymous-user]

F1 making FIFA look like a competent organisation…

[Fundoreen]

As much as I would have liked to see Massa win the title that year I dont know why every other team should suffer loss by the singapore race being excluded.
The only option would be remove the renault from the results. Then hamilton would have even more points and still be champion.

[MarkwG]

Fundoreen said:

As much as I would have liked to see Massa win the title that year I dont know why every other team should suffer loss by the singapore race being excluded.
The only option would be remove the renault from the results. Then hamilton would have even more points and still be champion.

There were precedents for that from the season before, but only constructor points were removed, not driver. However, for 2008, cancelling Piquets points, & maybe Alonso's too would have made sense to me - & have no effect on either Massa or Hamilton. I still consider it's far too late now to be faffing about with it though.

[Siao]

Absolutely, there is no way that Massa is getting that WDC. I see his case, if they knew about it and did nothing, but that is more like sour grapes than expecting something to actually be changed. That will not happen.

[DrDeAtH]

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

[sandman77]

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

[GiantCardboardPlato]

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

[PhilAsia]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap (except for Max with his 5 second penalty overtake), following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Added an important detail the FIA stewards missed........

[Muzzer79]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Except we don't know.

Faced with different circumstances; Hamilton could have had a blown engine, binned it off the circuit, had a puncture, anything whilst following the safety car.

Think it's not possible? All of the above have happened previously whilst cars have followed the safety car in the past.

It's likely that Hamilton would have continued and won had the rules not been broken, but likely isn't good enough.

If Abu Dhabi '21 is to be successfully challenged, the only option would be to annul the race altogether, which doesn't help anyone apart from Max.

[mat205125]

Muzzer79 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Except we don't know.

Faced with different circumstances; Hamilton could have had a blown engine, binned it off the circuit, had a puncture, anything whilst following the safety car.

Think it's not possible? All of the above have happened previously whilst cars have followed the safety car in the past.

It's likely that Hamilton would have continued and won had the rules not been broken, but likely isn't good enough.

If Abu Dhabi '21 is to be successfully challenged, the only option would be to annul the race altogether, which doesn't help anyone apart from Max.

Your sound logic isn't going to end well

[MarkwG]

Muzzer79 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Except we don't know.

Faced with different circumstances; Hamilton could have had a blown engine, binned it off the circuit, had a puncture, anything whilst following the safety car.

Think it's not possible? All of the above have happened previously whilst cars have followed the safety car in the past.

It's likely that Hamilton would have continued and won had the rules not been broken, but likely isn't good enough.

If Abu Dhabi '21 is to be successfully challenged, the only option would be to annul the race altogether, which doesn't help anyone apart from Max.

Except the race could also be declared red flagged at that point, with more than the required number of laps completed to declare a result; so no need to restart, & Hamilton declared as the winner on count back.

[PhilAsia]

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Except we don't know.

Faced with different circumstances; Hamilton could have had a blown engine, binned it off the circuit, had a puncture, anything whilst following the safety car.

Think it's not possible? All of the above have happened previously whilst cars have followed the safety car in the past.

It's likely that Hamilton would have continued and won had the rules not been broken, but likely isn't good enough.

If Abu Dhabi '21 is to be successfully challenged, the only option would be to annul the race altogether, which doesn't help anyone apart from Max.

Your sound logic isn't going to end well

Hardly sound. More like grasping. Lewis' engine and tyres held out, nor did he bin it - and all with the increased likelihood whilst under racing conditions. Plus, the finishing order would be Max last, as he illegally overtook under the SC.

[Muzzer79]

PhilAsia said:

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

sandman77 said:

DrDeAtH said:

IF (big if) say Massa got the title via a judicial route.

Surely this would open up a precedent to right the 2021 championship result no?

Well if the annulled the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max Verstappen would still be WDC.

However there is no need to annul it, since we know the finishing order that would have resulted had the rules been correctly implemented from the point the departure from the regulations was made. The cars would have continued in the order they crossed the line on the antepenultimate lap, following the safety car for the final lap, which would then have pitted before the final turn, after which the cars would have proceeded to the finish line without overtaking.

To annul the result would deprive the competitors of the points and victories that they earnt under the regulations and therefore be a less ideal result than implementing the ‘rightful’ result under the regulations. There is no need to do so, because we can logically derive the correct finishing order from the positions of the cars on the penultimate lap and from the rules of the sport, and with the knowledge that no cars broke down or failed to finish between the period the safety car left the track and the finish of the ‘race’.

It is indeed highly unusual for a sport to be able to do that, to change the results based on what would have happened would normally require conjecture, but here we know for certain what the correct finishing order should be because its dictated by the rules and the positions of the competitors on track at a specific point in time, which we have a record of.

Except we don't know.

Faced with different circumstances; Hamilton could have had a blown engine, binned it off the circuit, had a puncture, anything whilst following the safety car.

Think it's not possible? All of the above have happened previously whilst cars have followed the safety car in the past.

It's likely that Hamilton would have continued and won had the rules not been broken, but likely isn't good enough.

If Abu Dhabi '21 is to be successfully challenged, the only option would be to annul the race altogether, which doesn't help anyone apart from Max.

Your sound logic isn't going to end well

Hardly sound. More like grasping. Lewis' engine and tyres held out, nor did he bin it - and all with the increased likelihood whilst under racing conditions. Plus, the finishing order would be Max last, as he illegally overtook under the SC.

Now who's reaching?

The point is that you can't presume the same outcome when the circumstances are changed and/or theoretically repeated.

Lewis didn't crash whilst in second under the SC, he may have whilst in first. His engine may have overheated on that final lap due to lack of cooling at race temps.

You can't presume an outcome based on what could or should have happened. You can only base an outcome on what did happen. If you don't know your outcome, you have to void.

I'm as annoyed as anyone about that race. The fact that the moment cannot be given back is the worst part, I think.

[PhilAsia]

Muzzer79 said:

Now who's reaching?

The point is that you can't presume the same outcome when the circumstances are changed and/or theoretically repeated.

Lewis didn't crash whilst in second under the SC, he may have whilst in first. His engine may have overheated on that final lap due to lack of cooling at race temps.

You can't presume an outcome based on what could or should have happened. You can only base an outcome on what did happen. If you don't know your outcome, you have to void.

I'm as annoyed as anyone about that race. The fact that the moment cannot be given back is the worst part, I think.

Less of a grasp/reach nd more of an understood infraction that had, in the case of GrossJeans, received a 5 second penalty. In 2021, as with Masi's "all cars" defence of 2020, the precedent was strangely forgotten/ignored...

[MarkwG]

PhilAsia said:

Muzzer79 said:

Now who's reaching?

The point is that you can't presume the same outcome when the circumstances are changed and/or theoretically repeated.

Lewis didn't crash whilst in second under the SC, he may have whilst in first. His engine may have overheated on that final lap due to lack of cooling at race temps.

You can't presume an outcome based on what could or should have happened. You can only base an outcome on what did happen. If you don't know your outcome, you have to void.

I'm as annoyed as anyone about that race. The fact that the moment cannot be given back is the worst part, I think.

Less of a grasp/reach nd more of an understood infraction that had, in the case of GrossJeans, received a 5 second penalty. In 2021, as with Masi's "all cars" defence of 2020, the precedent was strangely forgotten/ignored...

No need for any second guessing:-

If we accept Massa has a case, therefore Abu Dhabi '21 requires investigation, there's only one realistic option - from the moment Masi went off piste, the race ended; it cannot be resumed within the required time allotted, therefore Art 6.5 applies.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_...

Article 6.5 states: If a race is suspended in accordance with Article 57, and cannot be resumed, points for each title will be awarded in accordance with the following criteria:
a) No points will be awarded If the leader has completed less than two (2) laps.
b) In each case detailed in Article 6.5c), 6.5d), 6.5e) and 6.5f), no points will be awarded unless a minimum of two (2) laps have been completed by the leader without a Safety Car and/or VSC intervention.
c) If the leader has completed two (2) laps but less than 25% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 1 of the table below.
d) If the leader has completed 25% but less than 50% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 2 of the table below.
e) If the leader has completed 50% but less than 75% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 3 of the table below.
f) If the leader has completed 75% or more of the scheduled race distance, full points will be awarded in accordance with Article 6.4.

That's the current version, the previous only differs in terms of reference to article numbers.

For the avoidance of doubt, I see neither as being viable options, let sleeping dogs lie.

[PhilAsia]

MarkwG said:

PhilAsia said:

Muzzer79 said:

Now who's reaching?

The point is that you can't presume the same outcome when the circumstances are changed and/or theoretically repeated.

Lewis didn't crash whilst in second under the SC, he may have whilst in first. His engine may have overheated on that final lap due to lack of cooling at race temps.

You can't presume an outcome based on what could or should have happened. You can only base an outcome on what did happen. If you don't know your outcome, you have to void.

I'm as annoyed as anyone about that race. The fact that the moment cannot be given back is the worst part, I think.

Less of a grasp/reach nd more of an understood infraction that had, in the case of GrossJeans, received a 5 second penalty. In 2021, as with Masi's "all cars" defence of 2020, the precedent was strangely forgotten/ignored...

No need for any second guessing:-

If we accept Massa has a case, therefore Abu Dhabi '21 requires investigation, there's only one realistic option - from the moment Masi went off piste, the race ended; it cannot be resumed within the required time allotted, therefore Art 6.5 applies.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_...

Article 6.5 states: If a race is suspended in accordance with Article 57, and cannot be resumed, points for each title will be awarded in accordance with the following criteria:
a) No points will be awarded If the leader has completed less than two (2) laps.
b) In each case detailed in Article 6.5c), 6.5d), 6.5e) and 6.5f), no points will be awarded unless a minimum of two (2) laps have been completed by the leader without a Safety Car and/or VSC intervention.
c) If the leader has completed two (2) laps but less than 25% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 1 of the table below.
d) If the leader has completed 25% but less than 50% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 2 of the table below.
e) If the leader has completed 50% but less than 75% of the scheduled race distance, points will be awarded in accordance with column 3 of the table below.
f) If the leader has completed 75% or more of the scheduled race distance, full points will be awarded in accordance with Article 6.4.

That's the current version, the previous only differs in terms of reference to article numbers.

For the avoidance of doubt, I see neither as being viable options, let sleeping dogs lie.

This was the 2021 version:

6.5 If a race is suspended under Article 41, and cannot be resumed, no points will be awarded if the leader has completed two laps or less, half points will be awarded if the leader has completed more than two laps but less than 75% of the original race distance and full points will be awarded if the leader has completed 75% or more of the original race distance.
If the formation lap is started behind the safety car (see Article 36.15c)
Article 36.15c: If track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the race at the scheduled time the start of the formation lap may take place behind the safety car. If this is the case, at the ten (10) minute signal its orange lights will be illuminated, this being the signal to the drivers that the formation lap will be started behind the safety car. At the same time this will be confirmed to all Competitors via the official messaging system. When the green lights are illuminated the safety car will leave the grid and all drivers must follow in grid order, no more than ten car lengths apart, and must respect the pit lane speed limit until they pass pole position. The safety car will continue until conditions are considered suitable for racing. Any cars that were starting the race from the pit lane may join the formation lap once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane for the first time. Any such cars may complete all formation laps but must enter the pit lane after the safety car returns to the pits and start the race from the end of the pit lane in the order they get there. Any other car entering the pit lane during the formation laps may re-join the track but must enter the pit lane after the safety car returns to the pits and start the race from the end of the pit lane in the order they get there. A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver whose tyre(s) are changed for a different specification before the start of the race. Overtaking during the lap(s) behind the safety car is only permitted under the following circumstances:
i) If a car is delayed when leaving the grid and cars behind cannot avoid passing it without unduly delaying the remainder of the field, or ii) If there is more than one car starting from the pit lane and one of them is unduly delayed. In either case drivers may only overtake to re-establish the original starting order or the order the cars at the pit exit were in when the formation lap was started. Any driver delayed in either way, and who is unable to re-establish the original starting order before he reaches the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits, must enter the pit lane and may only join the race once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane after the start of the race. A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver who fails to enter the pit lane if he has not re-established the original starting order before he reaches the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.

(cont), the original race distance will be deemed to be the distance calculated in accordance with Article 5.3c).
Article5.3c: If the formation lap is started behind the safety car (see Article 36.15c)) the number of race laps will be reduced by the number of laps carried out by the safety car minus one.

(cont) However, the maximum race time of three (3) hours (see Article 5.3b) will commence at the scheduled race start time.

As I see it, the FIA will do nothing except sweep any "nuisance" under the carpet for an increasingly more noticeable and objectionable pile.

[angrymoby]

Niponeoff said:

angrymoby said:

Niponeoff said:

So does this mean:

2007*

(Not trolling by the way, this has been trotted out for other drivers so it's only fair if open to question)

bit unfair on Kimi

Haha! Blimmin 'eck!

2008*

if you're going to start annulling races because of knock on implications (rather than just remove cheating competitors/ teams from races or championships) then looking back you'd think Massa would have more of a shout of annulling all the races in 2007 after early June, when McLaren were subsequently found in possession of Ferrari docs- which, if you halt the WDC at Canada would either put Hamilton (if you include the McL drivers) or him & not Kimi as champion that year

but then that wouldn't fit with the agenda's

Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 18th April 15:42

[GCH]

Muzzer79 said:

PhilAsia said:

Plus, the finishing order would be Max last, as he illegally overtook under the SC.

Now who's reaching?

Nobody is reaching....given the stewards themselves confirmed max** was "at one stage, for a very short period of time" in front, then inexplicably didn't give what would normally be an automatic penalty.
It's a binary rule.
The gaslighting was strong that weekend.

[PhilAsia]

GCH said:

Muzzer79 said:

PhilAsia said:

Plus, the finishing order would be Max last, as he illegally overtook under the SC.

Now who's reaching?

Nobody is reaching....given the stewards themselves confirmed max** was "at one stage, for a very short period of time" in front, then inexplicably didn't give what would normally be an automatic penalty.
It's a binary rule.
The gaslighting was strong that weekend.

I dunno, the PH "yeah buts" feel they carry the swing on this one..