Discussion
paulguitar said:
I just came across this quite amazing video on youtube tonight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk1JI2bO5lE
I am not sure if it has previously been posted here, also not sure if perhaps it's a Pistonheader in the video as a six-year-old?
Great stuff. Those Turbo cars sounded garbage though.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk1JI2bO5lE
I am not sure if it has previously been posted here, also not sure if perhaps it's a Pistonheader in the video as a six-year-old?
jsf said:
dr_gn said:
Same with historic F1 and Goodwood etc, nothing like seeing them when they were being run and driven in anger by a 'proper' F1 team, when they were state-of-the-art. Something special about it that a demo can't ever replicate.
Historic F1 races are not demo's, same goes for the cars races at Goodwood.dr_gn said:
I didn’t say historic F1 races were demos, I’m saying the experience of either a historic F1 race, or a demo is nothing like seeing them when they were state of the art, when you knew you were seeing cutting edge technology cars, being pushed to their limits by the best drivers in the world.
The implication was there. Of course the drama of cutting edge technology is not there, but the cars are still spectacular in the right hands and in some cases faster than period.jsf said:
dr_gn said:
I didn’t say historic F1 races were demos, I’m saying the experience of either a historic F1 race, or a demo is nothing like seeing them when they were state of the art, when you knew you were seeing cutting edge technology cars, being pushed to their limits by the best drivers in the world.
The implication was there. Of course the drama of cutting edge technology is not there, but the cars are still spectacular in the right hands and in some cases faster than period.dr_gn said:
The other thing is - and I admit I’ve not seen historic F1 for years - An FW14B or MP4/6 is very different from the usual DFV pick and mix stuff. The last time I saw something ‘proper’ being displayed on a circuit was the Ferrari Clienti thing at Donington years ago. Some of the drivers could barely fit in the cockpits, and their heads obscured the air boxes. Combine that with some comedy driving skills and it was all a little bit sad to see. Even when F1 drivers demo teams’ old ‘90’s cars, they don’t run the engines to anything like their limits.
I went to the Ferrari weekend at Silverstone a while ago and laughed out loud as I saw one of the wealthy drivers of an old F1 car brake so early for Stowe that he had to get back on the gas and brake a second time when he finally reached the corner...
paulguitar said:
dr_gn said:
The other thing is - and I admit I’ve not seen historic F1 for years - An FW14B or MP4/6 is very different from the usual DFV pick and mix stuff. The last time I saw something ‘proper’ being displayed on a circuit was the Ferrari Clienti thing at Donington years ago. Some of the drivers could barely fit in the cockpits, and their heads obscured the air boxes. Combine that with some comedy driving skills and it was all a little bit sad to see. Even when F1 drivers demo teams’ old ‘90’s cars, they don’t run the engines to anything like their limits.
I went to the Ferrari weekend at Silverstone a while ago and laughed out loud as I saw one of the wealthy drivers of an old F1 car brake so early for Stowe that he had to get back on the gas and brake a second time when he finally reached the corner...jsf said:
Looks like my initial impression of your post was correct.
If it’s my post your referring to, the impression I wanted to give was that, IMO, for the enthusiast who took the trouble to actually attend events, 90’s F1 cars were in a different league to modern F1 in terms of variety, purpose and spectacle (it’s currently all pretty s
t), and that historic F1 racing and demonstrations are pale imitations of of what that era of F1 was actually like.jsf said:
Great stuff. Those Turbo cars sounded garbage though.
Some did - BMW and Hart 4s were white noise - but TAG , Honda and Renault V6s sounded cultured , and very , very loud , especially if you were watching somewhere wonderfully close like Paddock Hill or (as I did once) Acqua Minerale Edited by coppice on Saturday 27th June 17:46
dr_gn said:
jsf said:
Looks like my initial impression of your post was correct.
If it’s my post your referring to, the impression I wanted to give was that, IMO, for the enthusiast who took the trouble to actually attend events, 90’s F1 cars were in a different league to modern F1 in terms of variety, purpose and spectacle (it’s currently all pretty st), and that historic F1 racing and demonstrations are pale imitations of of what that era of F1 was actually like.
For those of us who didn’t get the chance to go to GP in years gone by, even just seeing an F1 car parked up was highlight enough.
I would argue that quite a few of the top level historic racers don’t hold back much when they are actually racing the cars.
The Festival of Speed has lots of restrictions now so nobody is allowed push the F1 machinery any more.
In the years up to 2000, I recall some very hairy and frantic F1 runs.
I would argue that quite a few of the top level historic racers don’t hold back much when they are actually racing the cars.
The Festival of Speed has lots of restrictions now so nobody is allowed push the F1 machinery any more.
In the years up to 2000, I recall some very hairy and frantic F1 runs.
Eric Mc said:
I would argue that quite a few of the top level historic racers don’t hold back much when they are actually racing the cars.
They don't hold back at all. It's very competitive at the front, you obviously get a mix of talents and ages of drivers but the guys fighting over the wins are quick. You get quite a few drivers who are professional level drivers in these cars.Demo's and events like the FOS are just putting on a show of the car or enjoying a hobby, lucky people that they are. The more modern kit doesn't have anywhere to race, but you still get some of the cars like the championship winning Williams and McLaren's given a run with the owner renting a private circuit for the day and paying for McLaren and Williams to run the cars, they get run at full power. Billionaires can do that sort of thing out of the public gaze.
Guys like Martin Stretton and Katsui Kubota can be very impressive , and very quick indeed in historic F1 . And I enjoy watching these cars for their own sake , especially when I can perv over them in the pits . But the fact that notionally the same cars are being used as those which contested Grands Prix I saw in period does not mean they give much more than a hint of the drama and sense of occasion when , as in nearly all F1 , we were watching some of the best drivers in the world drive the fastest road circuit racing cars in the world - and with the eyes of millions also watching the race .
So, lovely though it is to see a FW07 Williams , it doesn't compare with the euphoria of seeing Reggazoni take the team's first ever victory 41 years ago . And a Lotus 72 can never be less than a joy , even when being driven by a well padded 40-something banker , but having seen Ronnie Peterson in 150mph opposite lock drifts around the old Woodcote in 1973 , it's a pale evocation of reality.
But away from DFV cars , seeing and hearing the more unusual car is a delight . I talked last year to Joe Colasacco's crew, who told me just how much looking after their boss's car took-but when it is Ferrari 1512 , with a tiny V12 of just 1500cc it's never going to be the car of choice for small savers . But THAT NOISE - yet another car from Maranello which can make me almost weep with pleasure . I am one of many victims of what the late Henry Hope- Frost called fever, and I've been avoiding a cure for decades .
So, lovely though it is to see a FW07 Williams , it doesn't compare with the euphoria of seeing Reggazoni take the team's first ever victory 41 years ago . And a Lotus 72 can never be less than a joy , even when being driven by a well padded 40-something banker , but having seen Ronnie Peterson in 150mph opposite lock drifts around the old Woodcote in 1973 , it's a pale evocation of reality.
But away from DFV cars , seeing and hearing the more unusual car is a delight . I talked last year to Joe Colasacco's crew, who told me just how much looking after their boss's car took-but when it is Ferrari 1512 , with a tiny V12 of just 1500cc it's never going to be the car of choice for small savers . But THAT NOISE - yet another car from Maranello which can make me almost weep with pleasure . I am one of many victims of what the late Henry Hope- Frost called fever, and I've been avoiding a cure for decades .
Eric Mc said:
Or the Matra V12, or the BRM V16.
Just gobsmackingly loud and impressive. The current cars sound like strangled chickens.
I'm lucky enough to have heard them both. They knock anything else into a cocked hat (though a big-block Chevy V8 in a CanAm McLaren has its own particular charm).Just gobsmackingly loud and impressive. The current cars sound like strangled chickens.
Agreed - even though the BRM was OTT in ambition and design , but so lacking in results.
Engines that have made big impressions on me are legion , from big block V8s at the drag strip to screaming 1600cc and 2 litre F2 cars. but a favourite F 1 engine was the Lamborghini V12 used by the :Larousse team (also Lotus , en route to the corner of the paddock reserved for has beens). It evoked just about everything that is good about V12s - fabulous , howling wail revving to insane heights - with one exception - power.
My favourite F1 engine is more recent, the last Toyota V10 . My God it was amazing -making a whole symphony of noise , from the trademark doomy howl of a V10 under acceleration to seismic rumbles, clicks and bangs under braking .
And who has heard the quadcam Ford 4.2 V8 in the Lotus 38 ? I interviewed Clive Chapman a few years ago and he told me that when they started it up (for the first time since Jim Clark won the Indy 500 ) the noise literally blew the plaster off the walls. In 2000 I'd seen another 38 at Goodwood being warmed up and was surprised to have any hearing intact.
It is a dangerous addiction - my left eardrum was punctured by a V10 Mugen Honda on a muggy day at Silverstone in 97 and it hurt like bloody hell !
Engines that have made big impressions on me are legion , from big block V8s at the drag strip to screaming 1600cc and 2 litre F2 cars. but a favourite F 1 engine was the Lamborghini V12 used by the :Larousse team (also Lotus , en route to the corner of the paddock reserved for has beens). It evoked just about everything that is good about V12s - fabulous , howling wail revving to insane heights - with one exception - power.
My favourite F1 engine is more recent, the last Toyota V10 . My God it was amazing -making a whole symphony of noise , from the trademark doomy howl of a V10 under acceleration to seismic rumbles, clicks and bangs under braking .
And who has heard the quadcam Ford 4.2 V8 in the Lotus 38 ? I interviewed Clive Chapman a few years ago and he told me that when they started it up (for the first time since Jim Clark won the Indy 500 ) the noise literally blew the plaster off the walls. In 2000 I'd seen another 38 at Goodwood being warmed up and was surprised to have any hearing intact.
It is a dangerous addiction - my left eardrum was punctured by a V10 Mugen Honda on a muggy day at Silverstone in 97 and it hurt like bloody hell !
I can recall the first time I ever saw an F1 car, an old Lola from 87 racing in some Libre class, was a truly great sound.
I was lucky enough to see f1 in its early N/A versions so saw the Honda's ferrari's. I do recall a day in 95 in practice when for some reason berger and Alesi were the only ones out on track, that day will stay with me forever, the sound.
But I miss not being iold enough to witness the old turbo cars, I loved them so visceral and basic, driver then were true champions, even the guys trying to qualify RAM's Osella's and Spirit's and Zakkers. Imagine how rotten they were with lag, no power steering and naff tyres
I was lucky enough to see f1 in its early N/A versions so saw the Honda's ferrari's. I do recall a day in 95 in practice when for some reason berger and Alesi were the only ones out on track, that day will stay with me forever, the sound.
But I miss not being iold enough to witness the old turbo cars, I loved them so visceral and basic, driver then were true champions, even the guys trying to qualify RAM's Osella's and Spirit's and Zakkers. Imagine how rotten they were with lag, no power steering and naff tyres
My first real life encounter with an F1 car was one of those incorrectly derided "demonstrations".
It was 1978 and the venue was The Phoenix Park in Dublin. Derek Daly had risen up the ranks of motorsport and had made it into F1 in 1978 with the Ensign team - who were at best, midfield runners.
Daly, being Irish, was invited to demonstrate the 1978 Ensign at the annual Phoenix Park road races. He duly did - giving it full beans down the mile long main straight on the old Hawthorn Circuit. It was incredible - the sheer speed, the braking ability art the end of the straight, the shotgun sound of the gear changes and, of course, the howl of the Cosworth DFV.
This is the car -
It was 1978 and the venue was The Phoenix Park in Dublin. Derek Daly had risen up the ranks of motorsport and had made it into F1 in 1978 with the Ensign team - who were at best, midfield runners.
Daly, being Irish, was invited to demonstrate the 1978 Ensign at the annual Phoenix Park road races. He duly did - giving it full beans down the mile long main straight on the old Hawthorn Circuit. It was incredible - the sheer speed, the braking ability art the end of the straight, the shotgun sound of the gear changes and, of course, the howl of the Cosworth DFV.
This is the car -
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