Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
rev-erend said:
At this point the answer seems to be to buy in a proven pu like Merc or fezza that should get you mid to front of grid. Rebuild team reputation and gain more sponsors to be able to afford the best people to move to the front with new innovation.
I doubt Ferrari would agree to supply them in all honesty. They've never had a history of supplying a top level team capable of beating them and, from the rumours I've heard, and why Sauber are running last years engine, they insist on a Multi-year supply deal. They wanted Sauber to take a three year deal but Sauber didn't want that, I'd imagine because Honda were putting out feelers about another team at the time. Although it's completely baseless and have no sources or anything, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Ferrari insist on any decisions required by all the teams, any supplied team are contractually bound to vote the same way as Ferrari. After all, Ferrari care about one thing and one thing only. Ferrari.jsf said:
I didn't say it would.
Zak is a smart guy, He is the opposite of what you think.
For a guy who likes the sound of his own voice he kept a low profile all those years he wasn't in McLaren. Zak is a smart guy, He is the opposite of what you think.
Whilst I think you're right about his full Rolodex, he won't compromise integrity in stealing sponsors he put into other teams, that's not his style. Ask anyone on the paddock and they'll confirm that...even EJ!
rubystone said:
jsf said:
I didn't say it would.
Zak is a smart guy, He is the opposite of what you think.
For a guy who likes the sound of his own voice he kept a low profile all those years he wasn't in McLaren. Zak is a smart guy, He is the opposite of what you think.
Whilst I think you're right about his full Rolodex, he won't compromise integrity in stealing sponsors he put into other teams, that's not his style. Ask anyone on the paddock and they'll confirm that...even EJ!
And with regards to sponsorship, if the term of the deal expires they are all fair game, that's the rules of F1.
It was me that said that. If you look back you'll find interviews with him about how F1 isn't fulfilling its commercial potential and so on.
I don't hate the guy, he is a very good marketeer and has worked it for years in F1.
I'm just not convinced with whats going on at McLaren right now.
Vandoorne would appear to be a talented driver, but is struggling and they seem unable to help, during interviews this year he's seemed pretty nonchalant to me.
I don't buy that he has a list of potential sponsors champing at the bit to get involved but refuse to do so whilst Honda are with the team. If nothing else sponsors would get plenty of air time right now wouldn't they ?
Anyway, there is a Brazilian article that says Mario Illien has been working with Honda for some time and that there is a new engine coming for Austria, this is the upgrade meant to be available for Canada, but it isn't ready, which ties up with what Hasegawa said (although he refused to commit to a delivery date). Information apparently comes from a conversation that the Bahrain track owner was involved in (so may have some legitimacy).
We'll see if that turns out to be the case.
McLaren reckon they'd be P3 in Canada with a Merc engine, they've calculated this purely from GPS data that showed they'd lost 1.3 seconds in sector 1 and 3 to the Mercedes. Interesting and fine in theory, but who knows what side effects the Merc engine would have on the chassis design and handling.. in reality you aren't going to know until you built and ran the car, at the very least in a sim.
I don't hate the guy, he is a very good marketeer and has worked it for years in F1.
I'm just not convinced with whats going on at McLaren right now.
Vandoorne would appear to be a talented driver, but is struggling and they seem unable to help, during interviews this year he's seemed pretty nonchalant to me.
I don't buy that he has a list of potential sponsors champing at the bit to get involved but refuse to do so whilst Honda are with the team. If nothing else sponsors would get plenty of air time right now wouldn't they ?
Anyway, there is a Brazilian article that says Mario Illien has been working with Honda for some time and that there is a new engine coming for Austria, this is the upgrade meant to be available for Canada, but it isn't ready, which ties up with what Hasegawa said (although he refused to commit to a delivery date). Information apparently comes from a conversation that the Bahrain track owner was involved in (so may have some legitimacy).
We'll see if that turns out to be the case.
McLaren reckon they'd be P3 in Canada with a Merc engine, they've calculated this purely from GPS data that showed they'd lost 1.3 seconds in sector 1 and 3 to the Mercedes. Interesting and fine in theory, but who knows what side effects the Merc engine would have on the chassis design and handling.. in reality you aren't going to know until you built and ran the car, at the very least in a sim.
McLaren now have a good car and the team is performing much better than it was a couple of years ago, the only dramas you see are powertrain related, you couldn't say that last year even.
For the job Zak is employed to do, I don't currently see how he could do better, he has been a breath of fresh air to the team and produced the story of the year with Alonso doing the Indy 500 so well.
From an engineering standpoint, the basic engine installation is very similar across the board, it wouldn't be much of a challenge to swap power unit because of the way the rules are written with regards to installation points and CofG, it would be a lot simpler than the challenge Brawn had when they adopted the Mercedes engine at short notice with a tiny budget. The installation is not the key to car performance, its the aero package and the rules ensure you can package any engine within your required aero concept.
McLaren have a decision to make, do they wait until 2021 when the new powertrain rules come and just hope Honda can improve, or do they cut and run and soak up the loss in income from Honda. That decision will be based on how much the F1 results are impacting their car division growth rate. One of the reasons for Alonso's Indy 500 entry was to boost the road car sales in the USA, which is a massive potential market for them.
For the job Zak is employed to do, I don't currently see how he could do better, he has been a breath of fresh air to the team and produced the story of the year with Alonso doing the Indy 500 so well.
From an engineering standpoint, the basic engine installation is very similar across the board, it wouldn't be much of a challenge to swap power unit because of the way the rules are written with regards to installation points and CofG, it would be a lot simpler than the challenge Brawn had when they adopted the Mercedes engine at short notice with a tiny budget. The installation is not the key to car performance, its the aero package and the rules ensure you can package any engine within your required aero concept.
McLaren have a decision to make, do they wait until 2021 when the new powertrain rules come and just hope Honda can improve, or do they cut and run and soak up the loss in income from Honda. That decision will be based on how much the F1 results are impacting their car division growth rate. One of the reasons for Alonso's Indy 500 entry was to boost the road car sales in the USA, which is a massive potential market for them.
I agree that the team has improved since the Whitmarsh tenure, but thats because Ron re-built the team.
I think you've got a very optimistic view - Zak being the second coming, the car and team perfect other than the engine, to change the engine is a trivial matter, sponsors are bashing the door down wanting to sign etc etc.
I don't think any of it is that easy.
Changing engine is surely going to be based on finding $100m to replace the budget Honda provide. The thing is if they do that where do they go in the future ? I do believe Ron was right when he said you can't win championships with a customer engine. I suppose they can look to a new provider in 2021, but the current treatment of Honda in the press is hardly going to endear them to future partners is it.
I think you've got a very optimistic view - Zak being the second coming, the car and team perfect other than the engine, to change the engine is a trivial matter, sponsors are bashing the door down wanting to sign etc etc.
I don't think any of it is that easy.
Changing engine is surely going to be based on finding $100m to replace the budget Honda provide. The thing is if they do that where do they go in the future ? I do believe Ron was right when he said you can't win championships with a customer engine. I suppose they can look to a new provider in 2021, but the current treatment of Honda in the press is hardly going to endear them to future partners is it.
Crafty_ said:
I agree that the team has improved since the Whitmarsh tenure, but thats because Ron re-built the team.
I think you've got a very optimistic view - Zak being the second coming, the car and team perfect other than the engine, to change the engine is a trivial matter, sponsors are bashing the door down wanting to sign etc etc.
I don't think any of it is that easy.
Changing engine is surely going to be based on finding $100m to replace the budget Honda provide. The thing is if they do that where do they go in the future ? I do believe Ron was right when he said you can't win championships with a customer engine. I suppose they can look to a new provider in 2021, but the current treatment of Honda in the press is hardly going to endear them to future partners is it.
Red Bull won four championships with a customer engine. The last few years its been an powertrain formula, but that has changed somewhat this year and when the new powertrain rules come into force it will be back to the Red Bull dominant era regarding who wins.I think you've got a very optimistic view - Zak being the second coming, the car and team perfect other than the engine, to change the engine is a trivial matter, sponsors are bashing the door down wanting to sign etc etc.
I don't think any of it is that easy.
Changing engine is surely going to be based on finding $100m to replace the budget Honda provide. The thing is if they do that where do they go in the future ? I do believe Ron was right when he said you can't win championships with a customer engine. I suppose they can look to a new provider in 2021, but the current treatment of Honda in the press is hardly going to endear them to future partners is it.
The only constant in F1 is that nothing stays the same, Brawn will make sure you don't need to be a works engine team to win, you just need a good car overall. If he doesn't he will have failed in his goal.
Interesting point made during the qualifying commentary yesterday about Sauber.
They're in a no lose situation for next season - the Honda deal will be far cheaper than the current Ferrari one and if McLaren move to Mercedes and Honda sort out even half their issues, it could be a decent engine...
They're in a no lose situation for next season - the Honda deal will be far cheaper than the current Ferrari one and if McLaren move to Mercedes and Honda sort out even half their issues, it could be a decent engine...
Crafty_ said:
Red Bull was the defacto Renault factory team.
I'm sure Brawn will eventually get the regulations that even up the chances for all teams, but they are at least four years away, until then McLaren will be in no mans land (funnily enough, just like Red Bull are) until then.
But not the factory team. The level of investment in the Renault powertrain since Renault returned is a magnitude higher now. Red Bull did a fantastic job during that period.I'm sure Brawn will eventually get the regulations that even up the chances for all teams, but they are at least four years away, until then McLaren will be in no mans land (funnily enough, just like Red Bull are) until then.
hairyben said:
I guess if you repeat the good chassis thing for long enough people will agree to believe you out of sheer fatigue.
Anyone who's seen it and raced against it that's passed comment seems to agree that the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Brundle himself has said that in the slow corners and direction changes the McLaren is as good as any.MissChief said:
Anyone who's seen it and raced against it that's passed comment seems to agree that the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Brundle himself has said that in the slow corners and direction changes the McLaren is as good as any.
I think Brundle actually said the McLaren chassis might be better than the Red Bull which I thought was surprising enough. To say it's as good as the Ferrari in particular might be stretching it.HustleRussell said:
MissChief said:
Anyone who's seen it and raced against it that's passed comment seems to agree that the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Brundle himself has said that in the slow corners and direction changes the McLaren is as good as any.
I think Brundle actually said the McLaren chassis might be better than the Red Bull which I thought was surprising enough. To say it's as good as the Ferrari in particular might be stretching it.HustleRussell said:
MissChief said:
Anyone who's seen it and raced against it that's passed comment seems to agree that the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Brundle himself has said that in the slow corners and direction changes the McLaren is as good as any.
I think Brundle actually said the McLaren chassis might be better than the Red Bull which I thought was surprising enough. To say it's as good as the Ferrari in particular might be stretching it.Alonso rates the chassis, although how much of that is just to pile a bit more pressure on Honda to get their act together remains to be seen.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-mclaren-...
Certainly at Barcelona their pace seemed pretty good. I think their fastest lap was only 3/10ths off the quickest car.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-mclaren-...
Certainly at Barcelona their pace seemed pretty good. I think their fastest lap was only 3/10ths off the quickest car.
thegreenhell said:
FeelingLucky said:
If Brundle is correct (and I've no reason to suppose he isn't) the vast straight line deficit they're suffering in Canada is worth 1.5 seconds alone, put's the chassis performance into stark contrast, being that Alonso was 1.2 adrift in Q2
The McLarens were slowest in every speed trap in qualifying. Alonso's deficit to the fastest at each point as follows:Intermediate 1 - 9.5 km/h
Intermediate 2 - 10.9 km/h
Speed trap - 15.4 km/h
Finish line - 15.8 km/h
http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-ch...
It's been repeated ad nauseum already, I'm sure, but seeing it in stark figures like that shows that they are far more than just an update package behind even the Renaults.
Vaud said:
HustleRussell said:
MissChief said:
Anyone who's seen it and raced against it that's passed comment seems to agree that the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Brundle himself has said that in the slow corners and direction changes the McLaren is as good as any.
I think Brundle actually said the McLaren chassis might be better than the Red Bull which I thought was surprising enough. To say it's as good as the Ferrari in particular might be stretching it.It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
Back in the day, my old man used to have a good number of contacts in the F1 paddock. The general consensus was that power is everything. More power means you can run more downforce without as much worry of the drag penalty, which then means because you have more grip you can add more power, ad infinitum.
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