Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
Andy S15 said:
Back in the day, my old man used to have a good number of contacts in the F1 paddock. The general consensus was that power is everything. More power means you can run more downforce without as much worry of the drag penalty, which then means because you have more grip you can add more power, ad infinitum.
I'm not saying that more power isn't a good thing. What I'm saying is not to assume that more power in the current chassis is a guarantee of front running. They had a Merc engine not too long ago and were struggling around in mid-pack. London424 said:
I'm no expert but I doubt it's as simple as saying more power=front running performance.
It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
The power delivery characteristics of the Mercedes are also far ahead of the Honda, so the drivers have better control of their slow/medium speed corner exits even though they have more power to play with.It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
It quite genuinely is a win-win situation for Merc compared to Honda.
High speed cornering performance is purely based on downforce, so if the McLaren is already quick in the high speed turns it would stay fast.
London424 said:
I'm not saying that more power isn't a good thing. What I'm saying is not to assume that more power in the current chassis is a guarantee of front running. They had a Merc engine not too long ago and were struggling around in mid-pack.
A reasonable part issue in 2014 was the fuel supplier, allegedly. The Mobil fuel McLaren was contractually obliged to use was somewhat lacking in ooomf compared to the Petronas rocket fuel.London424 said:
I'm no expert but I doubt it's as simple as saying more power=front running performance.
It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
But they're already as fast in the corners, matching the top teams, their GPS trace shows this so they don't need to make time up in the corners even with a Merc engine, they just utilise the power on the straights where handling doesn't come into playIt might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
Doink said:
London424 said:
I'm no expert but I doubt it's as simple as saying more power=front running performance.
It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
But they're already as fast in the corners, matching the top teams, their GPS trace shows this so they don't need to make time up in the corners even with a Merc engine, they just utilise the power on the straights where handling doesn't come into playIt might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
skwdenyer said:
Doink said:
London424 said:
I'm no expert but I doubt it's as simple as saying more power=front running performance.
It might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
But they're already as fast in the corners, matching the top teams, their GPS trace shows this so they don't need to make time up in the corners even with a Merc engine, they just utilise the power on the straights where handling doesn't come into playIt might look good in corners now, but that's because it's underpowered so aren't having to balance things. With more power it could throw up a load of other issues in the chassis that aren't evident with the current power output.
Doink said:
But they're already as fast in the corners, matching the top teams, their GPS trace shows this so they don't need to make time up in the corners even with a Merc engine, they just utilise the power on the straights where handling doesn't come into play
I have seen the GPS data from China and I saw the car lacking in drivability/traction, and not as quick as the Merc/Ferrari in the high speed corners. If I can get it together, I'll post it here. Now, clearly they've been developing the car since then and Monaco and Spain were great performances with the upgrades working very well. Was pleasantly surprised at their performance at Monaco, as last year they struggled to get the car into the window there.I think the car is working the tyres well and they're not having as much a difficulty as the Merc to dial the car in circuit to circuit.
Someone smarter than I, has managed to extract the GPS data from the Spanish GP qualifying (Hamilton vs Alonso):
I'm a McLaren fan, but if I were to be critical of the chassis, looking at these data;
1) Braking much earlier than the Merc in T1 and lacking in entry and apex speed. Downforce helps in the braking zones. I saw the same thing in China in the big braking zone after the long back straight.
You see this repeatedly in the entry to turns 4, 5 and 7, although Alonso is able to brake as late as Hamilton here.
2) Turn 8/9 is a big one for me, as Hamilton wasn't even the quickest through there (Bottas was quicker). Even so, there's a clear gap in performance there. I don't believe they're really compromising the wing levels, but it would be difficult to believe that more power would entail better performance through T9.
3) Turn 10 is good, but still lacking a couple of clicks in apex speed.
4) Getting into the meat of Sector 3, T12 is pretty bad, Turn 13 just about alright, but you really see Alonso sacrificing some apex speed in T14 for that T15 exit which is matching the Merc. Probably only Alonso/Hamilton got those corners right of the Q3 runners.
It's difficult to conclude that they'll be immediately at the sharp end given Merc power, which would be why Merc are probably entertaining a customer deal, keeping in mind they refused a customer deal with RBR last year. I bet they desperately want one of their customers to take points off Ferrari and McLaren would be in that range given some further development.
In Montreal the corners don't go on for long, and it's more about quick direction changes and carrying speed, a lot less 'classical' corners, even so I'd be surprised to see the McLaren matching the Merc in the slow corners.
The problem I see with Honda is that they entered the sport out of sync with the regulation change, so they don't have the luxury of having to learn and adapt at the same pace as the others, complicated by the fact that they were a bit rusty as they'd been out of the sport for a good number of years.
A further problem is that Ferrari have shown that you don't need to copy the Merc layout to produce as good power as the Merc. While Honda started out with this philosophy in furrowing their own path, they've decided this year to copy the most difficult part of the Merc unit to get right (with the split design).
It is well known that even with Merc's development time and resources they'd had difficulty with this. Now Honda have decided to copy that with about 10 minutes of development. Que lots of vibration and blown up engines. Who'd have thought.
I think it's a good thing that Honda didn't bring the rumoured update at Canada. Better to give it more development time and put something on track with good reliability. The step in power will come, if the reliability is sorted. It might be too late for McLaren though...which is a shame.
Edited by Dr Z on Monday 12th June 13:23
Rightly or wrongly, having watched Canada I believe that McLaren have their two cars running in different modes- They're running more reliable conservative modes on Vandoorne's car with a view to getting him to the end for the benefit of his own experience and the chance (however unlikely) of a point or two.
Fernando, on the other hand, has heard just about enough about engine saving and had enough of teenagers breezing past him and is insisting upon using more aggressive modes despite the reliability risk. Benefit of this to Nando is twofold; Firstly he looks like a driving god placing the McLaren much higher than it should be, secondly when the engine blows up he and the team can just point the finger at Honda.
Silly theory?
Fernando, on the other hand, has heard just about enough about engine saving and had enough of teenagers breezing past him and is insisting upon using more aggressive modes despite the reliability risk. Benefit of this to Nando is twofold; Firstly he looks like a driving god placing the McLaren much higher than it should be, secondly when the engine blows up he and the team can just point the finger at Honda.
Silly theory?
Dr Z said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
You can't infer chassis quality from these traces unless you know their respective setups. Alonso could be running less downforce to compensate for his lack of power.
I honestly doubt they're running less drag due to lack of power, unlike last year.That will naturally mean they will be lighter on down force than they could be with more power available. It's pretty basic stuff.
CraigyMc said:
Isn't that extracted from the TV broadcast telemetry rather than from GPS?
I believe so, yes. TV telemetry comes from GPS which FOM have access to, doesn't it? The resolution might not be as good as what the teams have access to, but IME you can get fairly decent data in the 100ms range and this is good enough to look into the performance in some detail.
Also the F1 website live timing have some normalised numbers on several things ('steering', 'throttle' etc) which suggests FOM have access to these things.
Look at that. Nobody is extrapolating anything here. People are welcome to ignore real measurements. A tenth of a second data rate is more than good enough for me.jsf said:
They will be maximising the overall lap time by running the appropriate down force/drag to achieve that, just like all the teams do.
That will naturally mean they will be lighter on down force than they could be with more power available. It's pretty basic stuff.
I know the basics, but given how all cars are being balanced due to extra drag in this year's cars, you don't know that they have extra downforce they can add, if they have an increase in power? That's just speculation.That will naturally mean they will be lighter on down force than they could be with more power available. It's pretty basic stuff.
If they were being compromised, I'd bet we'd have heard about it in the press given how much it was talked about last year.
HustleRussell said:
Rightly or wrongly, having watched Canada I believe that McLaren have their two cars running in different modes- They're running more reliable conservative modes on Vandoorne's car with a view to getting him to the end for the benefit of his own experience and the chance (however unlikely) of a point or two.
Fernando, on the other hand, has heard just about enough about engine saving and had enough of teenagers breezing past him and is insisting upon using more aggressive modes despite the reliability risk. Benefit of this to Nando is twofold; Firstly he looks like a driving god placing the McLaren much higher than it should be, secondly when the engine blows up he and the team can just point the finger at Honda.
Silly theory?
Its a good theory and makes sense tooFernando, on the other hand, has heard just about enough about engine saving and had enough of teenagers breezing past him and is insisting upon using more aggressive modes despite the reliability risk. Benefit of this to Nando is twofold; Firstly he looks like a driving god placing the McLaren much higher than it should be, secondly when the engine blows up he and the team can just point the finger at Honda.
Silly theory?
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