Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
spikyone said:
Where is the evidence that women are held back by money? Why is a girl less likely to have the financial support than a boy with a similar level of talent? As far as I'm aware it's only Chadwick that's raised the issue of a lack of money, and given her profile, $1.5m in prize money from W, and the support of Williams it's safe to say that money is not what was holding her back from getting the (international) F3 level seat she felt she deserved.
We've also seen women without much talent progress to a reasonably high level - Chadwick for a start, Carmen Jorda got to GP3 (and was hired by the Enstone team) with a dismal record, Susie Wolff drove in F1 free practice sessions having never won a race in her life. They've only reached those heights for their marketability. That alone is likely to give women/girls a significant advantage over men/boys in attracting sponsorship and being able to progress.
Pin has already raced in single seaters with men; she finished 10th in F4 UAE last season, with only a single podium - admittedly a win, but that's not indicative that she'll be anywhere near good enough for F1 if/when she returns to single seaters. Chadwick too has raced in single seaters with men, and has been poor. The current setup essentially excludes women from competing in high level single seaters. You ask where these female racers go. Well, there's even less point in them pootling around at the back in a male-dominated F3 series, so why not put them in that level of car but with an opportunity to win races?
A female ladder isn't just about making it "easier to win"; this is professional sport and for the most part you won't progress unless you're winning. At the moment it's a self-perpetuating cycle. The women at higher levels aren't good enough to mix it with men, therefore women make less progress, have little representation, and perhaps because they're not seeing women competing, not enough girls are taking up karting for there to be any realistic chance of finding someone that might be fast enough.
We're even less likely to find "the 'right' ones" with the funnel being as narrow as it currently is. Surely you can see that creating a women-only ladder is widening the potential talent pool? You did say that those good enough are already likely to be in karting, but the female ladder wouldn't ignore them or reduce their opportunities to shine. Instead it would take the top 10 or 20% of female racers rather than perhaps the current 1 or 2%, and it would give them more opportunities to progress. That's not suggesting that we create more of a "lower standard of competition" - at the moment we have what we have and there's no sign of it changing, because there's not enough representation to find the very best.
It's also worth noting that similar approaches are already being taken in other industries (e.g. programmes to improve access to STEM education both for women and under-represented ethnic groups). The long term goal isn't segregation, it's representation. That often means creating opportunities in the form of courses, schemes, competitions, or scholarships for those that are under-represented to help them progress.
And it goes one of two ways, in ten years or so: either we find women have the ability to race a car as fast as men, and then the female ladder can be scaled back; or we find that there are still no women able to compete with men, acknowledge that biology/physiology play a role, and it becomes a long-term/permanent ladder so that women can still race in high level single seaters. There's no downside.
Creating a women-only ladder is exactly going to create a lower standard of competition and it will also just continue to perpetuate that lower standard of competition. Plenty of male drivers do go through their careers pootling around at a lower level - why should women drivers have it any differently if they aren't able to do any better? Join the crowd or do something else since you aren't good enough - simple. If women need female only series at f4/f3 level be competitive so the best of those who might be winning that series don't simply get obliterated in a combined division by the fastest male drivers - they aren't ever likely to be good enough against the best male drivers and no amount of winning at that lower standard against slower competition is going to make them good enough to competitive anyway if taken out of the female only series. We've also seen women without much talent progress to a reasonably high level - Chadwick for a start, Carmen Jorda got to GP3 (and was hired by the Enstone team) with a dismal record, Susie Wolff drove in F1 free practice sessions having never won a race in her life. They've only reached those heights for their marketability. That alone is likely to give women/girls a significant advantage over men/boys in attracting sponsorship and being able to progress.
Pin has already raced in single seaters with men; she finished 10th in F4 UAE last season, with only a single podium - admittedly a win, but that's not indicative that she'll be anywhere near good enough for F1 if/when she returns to single seaters. Chadwick too has raced in single seaters with men, and has been poor. The current setup essentially excludes women from competing in high level single seaters. You ask where these female racers go. Well, there's even less point in them pootling around at the back in a male-dominated F3 series, so why not put them in that level of car but with an opportunity to win races?
A female ladder isn't just about making it "easier to win"; this is professional sport and for the most part you won't progress unless you're winning. At the moment it's a self-perpetuating cycle. The women at higher levels aren't good enough to mix it with men, therefore women make less progress, have little representation, and perhaps because they're not seeing women competing, not enough girls are taking up karting for there to be any realistic chance of finding someone that might be fast enough.
We're even less likely to find "the 'right' ones" with the funnel being as narrow as it currently is. Surely you can see that creating a women-only ladder is widening the potential talent pool? You did say that those good enough are already likely to be in karting, but the female ladder wouldn't ignore them or reduce their opportunities to shine. Instead it would take the top 10 or 20% of female racers rather than perhaps the current 1 or 2%, and it would give them more opportunities to progress. That's not suggesting that we create more of a "lower standard of competition" - at the moment we have what we have and there's no sign of it changing, because there's not enough representation to find the very best.
It's also worth noting that similar approaches are already being taken in other industries (e.g. programmes to improve access to STEM education both for women and under-represented ethnic groups). The long term goal isn't segregation, it's representation. That often means creating opportunities in the form of courses, schemes, competitions, or scholarships for those that are under-represented to help them progress.
And it goes one of two ways, in ten years or so: either we find women have the ability to race a car as fast as men, and then the female ladder can be scaled back; or we find that there are still no women able to compete with men, acknowledge that biology/physiology play a role, and it becomes a long-term/permanent ladder so that women can still race in high level single seaters. There's no downside.
you asked in your post 'Where is the evidence that women are held back by money?'? The answer is - it depends. At F3/F4 etc level (and possibly even before that like formula ford) they aren't held back by lack of money but rather lack of ability. If the ability was there, the funding would very likely be there as you noted due to the extra marketability.
That however may or may not still be the case at the younger karting ages where I was told (admittedly a few years ago) that girls are still quite competitive with boys. It's at that point I'm suggesting ensuring that any of those good enough (non gender specific) get the access to funding to move up if they wish. I don't really agree with the suggestion made by skwdenyer earlier such that girls get more funding irrespective of poorer results to ensure there remains an even mix of competitors in higher age groups but it would be an interesting exercise to keep on trying to get the best girls in karting at young ages moving upwards in the way that boys would tend to do because their parents probably would try to keep them in it if affordable.
spikyone said:
Repeat after me: flying fast jets is not a competitive sport.
As you freely admit, you have to pass a test to become a fast jet pilot, you don't have to prove that you can beat your peers. That's the equivalent of getting a racing licence, not the equivalent of being capable of competing at the elite level.
As I understand it, the fighters are only flown by the best pilots, those that don't make the cut end up flying transports etc. I agree there are vastly more fighter pilots than F1 drivers.As you freely admit, you have to pass a test to become a fast jet pilot, you don't have to prove that you can beat your peers. That's the equivalent of getting a racing licence, not the equivalent of being capable of competing at the elite level.
In Karting honestly to compete its not about your gender, its about the budget.
There are some amazing drivers, especially in KZ that are female, but I do fear that they lack the insane budget to move forward
This year one of the feeder series for Juniors to convert to Cars saw two scholarships won by female drivers. So it will be interesting to see how they get on.
A number of the female racers already have tie ins and support with F1 teams too. so there is the structure there for female drivers to move forward
One thing as a father of a male karter, every other driver on the grid is a rival, regardless of gender. It really does not matter once the Helmet goes on
I do understand the idea behind female only series, indeed there are initiatives now to start this at grass roots karting level. But my concern is that it will pull more females out of regular racing, which will be a shame.
If you can thrive in a British Kart championship or UKC Junior Rotax grid with 70+ drivers regardless of your gender, you have a talent. The female racers I respect, race to win out right, not just be the fastest female.
To get more racers coming through, focus on costs, not segregation in my opinion.
There are some amazing drivers, especially in KZ that are female, but I do fear that they lack the insane budget to move forward
This year one of the feeder series for Juniors to convert to Cars saw two scholarships won by female drivers. So it will be interesting to see how they get on.
A number of the female racers already have tie ins and support with F1 teams too. so there is the structure there for female drivers to move forward
One thing as a father of a male karter, every other driver on the grid is a rival, regardless of gender. It really does not matter once the Helmet goes on
I do understand the idea behind female only series, indeed there are initiatives now to start this at grass roots karting level. But my concern is that it will pull more females out of regular racing, which will be a shame.
If you can thrive in a British Kart championship or UKC Junior Rotax grid with 70+ drivers regardless of your gender, you have a talent. The female racers I respect, race to win out right, not just be the fastest female.
To get more racers coming through, focus on costs, not segregation in my opinion.
spikyone said:
As far as I'm aware it's only Chadwick that's raised the issue of a lack of money, and given her profile, $1.5m in prize money from W, and the support of Williams it's safe to say that money is not what was holding her back from getting the (international) F3 level seat she felt she deserved.
She could have quite easily used that $1.5m to pay for a drive in F3 but she decided to buy a house with it instead. I think that tells you all you need to know about how she actually rates her own ability.Lots of drivers in the past have sold everything they own or borrowed money to race Lauda and Mansell immediately spring to mind. Chadwick didn't want to do this, she wanted to buy a house instead.
If I had $1.5m and knew that I could either spend it on a year of F3 making up the numbers and end up with nothing, or on a house I would own forever, I would buy the house too.
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
spikyone said:
As far as I'm aware it's only Chadwick that's raised the issue of a lack of money, and given her profile, $1.5m in prize money from W, and the support of Williams it's safe to say that money is not what was holding her back from getting the (international) F3 level seat she felt she deserved.
She could have quite easily used that $1.5m to pay for a drive in F3 but she decided to buy a house with it instead. I think that tells you all you need to know about how she actually rates her own ability.Lots of drivers in the past have sold everything they own or borrowed money to race Lauda and Mansell immediately spring to mind. Chadwick didn't want to do this, she wanted to buy a house instead.
If I had $1.5m and knew that I could either spend it on a year of F3 making up the numbers and end up with nothing, or on a house I would own forever, I would buy the house too.
king fortune and set herself up for life racing in a complete gimmick championship against a bunch of no hopers. ThingsBehindTheSun said:
She could have quite easily used that $1.5m to pay for a drive in F3 but she decided to buy a house with it instead. I think that tells you all you need to know about how she actually rates her own ability.
Lots of drivers in the past have sold everything they own or borrowed money to race Lauda and Mansell immediately spring to mind. Chadwick didn't want to do this, she wanted to buy a house instead.
If I had $1.5m and knew that I could either spend it on a year of F3 making up the numbers and end up with nothing, or on a house I would own forever, I would buy the house too.
Lauda, the heir to enormous industrial wealth, perused a bank to lend him money secured against a life insurance policy. That’s not really an option for most people Lots of drivers in the past have sold everything they own or borrowed money to race Lauda and Mansell immediately spring to mind. Chadwick didn't want to do this, she wanted to buy a house instead.
If I had $1.5m and knew that I could either spend it on a year of F3 making up the numbers and end up with nothing, or on a house I would own forever, I would buy the house too.
Mansell had an income and assets to sell and, importantly, a career outside of racing to fall back on.
Very different times for both of them.
skwdenyer said:
Lauda, the heir to enormous industrial wealth, perused a bank to lend him money secured against a life insurance policy. That’s not really an option for most people
Mansell had an income and assets to sell and, importantly, a career outside of racing to fall back on.
Very different times for both of them.
I said this about her a long time ago.Mansell had an income and assets to sell and, importantly, a career outside of racing to fall back on.
Very different times for both of them.
Eddie Irvine, Johnny Herbert and Tommy Byrne didn't have these advantages and gave up everything and more to pursue their ambition.
skwdenyer said:
Lauda, the heir to enormous industrial wealth, perused a bank to lend him money secured against a life insurance policy. That’s not really an option for most people
Mansell had an income and assets to sell and, importantly, a career outside of racing to fall back on.
Very different times for both of them.
\Mansell had an income and assets to sell and, importantly, a career outside of racing to fall back on.
Very different times for both of them.
Chadwick had assets as well and there are plenty of jobs she could do if it all failed.
Besides there are plenty of others who have given absolutely everything trying to get into F1.
Yes, we saw that - strong drive at Indianapolis.
Listening to the commentators, they were saying she used last year to learn the circuits and racing in the U.S., and has come into this year physically stronger and quick in every session, but unlucky to have got tangled in incidents in the first two rounds.
Listening to the commentators, they were saying she used last year to learn the circuits and racing in the U.S., and has come into this year physically stronger and quick in every session, but unlucky to have got tangled in incidents in the first two rounds.
There's no outwardly physical reason females couldn't drive a racing car every bit as fast as a male.
I suspect the reason there aren't more female racing drivers is social/societal.
It'd be interesting to investigate whether the hormonal differences between males and females affects their risk/reward decision making on-track and ultimately their chances of making it at the sharp end as a result.
I suspect the reason there aren't more female racing drivers is social/societal.
It'd be interesting to investigate whether the hormonal differences between males and females affects their risk/reward decision making on-track and ultimately their chances of making it at the sharp end as a result.
Yazza54 said:
Good on her, let's see if she can keep doing it. Tricky races with drama and carnage often throw up different results.
I didn't see the race. Genuine and unbiased question, did she end P3 on merit or as a result of faster drivers having incidents?Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
TheDeuce said:
I didn't see the race. Genuine and unbiased question, did she end P3 on merit or as a result of faster drivers having incidents?
Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
She’s there on pace. Qualified well, dealt with full course yellow restarts well. Gained two positions from drivers ahead messing up, but she didn’t so good for her. Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
She’s learnt the circuits and has a better handle on the car.
Leithen said:
TheDeuce said:
I didn't see the race. Genuine and unbiased question, did she end P3 on merit or as a result of faster drivers having incidents?
Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
She’s there on pace. Qualified well, dealt with full course yellow restarts well. Gained two positions from drivers ahead messing up, but she didn’t so good for her. Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
She’s learnt the circuits and has a better handle on the car.
She’s qualified 6th for today’s race as well.
TheDeuce said:
Yazza54 said:
Good on her, let's see if she can keep doing it. Tricky races with drama and carnage often throw up different results.
I didn't see the race. Genuine and unbiased question, did she end P3 on merit or as a result of faster drivers having incidents?Basically asking if she's now genuinely improved over and above her W series success..?
Sure she didn’t overtake her way to the podium. But she didn’t cock it up like a couple in front of her.
So, yes, a mature drive to a deserved podium earned on merit.
Alwayzsidewayz2 said:
In Karting honestly to compete its not about your gender, its about the budget.
There are some amazing drivers, especially in KZ that are female, but I do fear that they lack the insane budget to move forward
This year one of the feeder series for Juniors to convert to Cars saw two scholarships won by female drivers. So it will be interesting to see how they get on.
A number of the female racers already have tie ins and support with F1 teams too. so there is the structure there for female drivers to move forward
One thing as a father of a male karter, every other driver on the grid is a rival, regardless of gender. It really does not matter once the Helmet goes on
I do understand the idea behind female only series, indeed there are initiatives now to start this at grass roots karting level. But my concern is that it will pull more females out of regular racing, which will be a shame.
If you can thrive in a British Kart championship or UKC Junior Rotax grid with 70+ drivers regardless of your gender, you have a talent. The female racers I respect, race to win out right, not just be the fastest female.
To get more racers coming through, focus on costs, not segregation in my opinion.
In the last 20 years I have watched some talented females in karting and motorsport in general such as Bia Figueiredo, Beitske Visser, Marta Garcia, etc. My conclusion: you do need testosterone for motorsport, period. The most talented females are at best "top average" when compared to the top drivers. There are some amazing drivers, especially in KZ that are female, but I do fear that they lack the insane budget to move forward
This year one of the feeder series for Juniors to convert to Cars saw two scholarships won by female drivers. So it will be interesting to see how they get on.
A number of the female racers already have tie ins and support with F1 teams too. so there is the structure there for female drivers to move forward
One thing as a father of a male karter, every other driver on the grid is a rival, regardless of gender. It really does not matter once the Helmet goes on
I do understand the idea behind female only series, indeed there are initiatives now to start this at grass roots karting level. But my concern is that it will pull more females out of regular racing, which will be a shame.
If you can thrive in a British Kart championship or UKC Junior Rotax grid with 70+ drivers regardless of your gender, you have a talent. The female racers I respect, race to win out right, not just be the fastest female.
To get more racers coming through, focus on costs, not segregation in my opinion.
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