Are modern performance cars irrelevant?
Discussion
Yesterday I took the current M5 for a test drive, having waited and waited until I was in a position to order one. Whilst there is no escaping that it was one seriously capable and blisteringly quick piece of kit, I came away slightly disappointed and feeling a little 'cold'.
On dual carriageways and the like, it might as well have been a 520d. On more interesting roads, it was so refined and the cabin so 'cocooned' that you just didn't get the buzz of driving it quickly. I'm lucky enough to have had a few quick cars over the past few years (M3s, 997 C2S, etc), and parted with the last M3 as the opportunity to actually use it properly on public roads was very few and far between. I must admit I was missing having a proper performance car, but the test drive simply left me feeling that seriously quick cars are increasingly irrelevant on today's roads. I'm testing AMG Mercs this weekend but can't help feeling that it'll be a similar experience. And I've said on here before that a lower powered car that you can drive harder more of the time is probably more rewarding than a seriously quick car you can only exploit every now and then.
Does anyone feel similar, or am I just getting old?
On dual carriageways and the like, it might as well have been a 520d. On more interesting roads, it was so refined and the cabin so 'cocooned' that you just didn't get the buzz of driving it quickly. I'm lucky enough to have had a few quick cars over the past few years (M3s, 997 C2S, etc), and parted with the last M3 as the opportunity to actually use it properly on public roads was very few and far between. I must admit I was missing having a proper performance car, but the test drive simply left me feeling that seriously quick cars are increasingly irrelevant on today's roads. I'm testing AMG Mercs this weekend but can't help feeling that it'll be a similar experience. And I've said on here before that a lower powered car that you can drive harder more of the time is probably more rewarding than a seriously quick car you can only exploit every now and then.
Does anyone feel similar, or am I just getting old?
It depends if you regally get a kick out of driving on quickly on public roads, or your partial to a bit of track or autobahn work. IMO even low powered faster cars get you in trouble quickly.
You would have to be an arse to drive anything with more than 100bhp to 10/10ths around every corner on the road. Maybe you need too look at more hardcore cars? Atoms/catherhams? BAC mono same as M5
You would have to be an arse to drive anything with more than 100bhp to 10/10ths around every corner on the road. Maybe you need too look at more hardcore cars? Atoms/catherhams? BAC mono same as M5
Used to be the case that you would need an expensive performance car to properly test road and driver. These days 10k will get you a fairly new car that will acheive performance that is more than adequate for the roads. Unless you indulge in track days you don't need a 50 grand supercar IMHO. I've go a fairly run of the mill vag saloon with 265bhp and its more than plenty for road fun.
Edited by Floosy on Thursday 1st March 21:27
5678 said:
Not quite the same league as you, but I totally agree.
Same here.I recently decided to keep my MX-5 instead of 'upgrading' as I found the car I test drove (a Boxster) not exciting enough to drive; quicker, yes, but it felt so composed it didn't feel 'alive'.
Have you thought about a more normal saloon and something raw like a Seven?
It does seem that they have got stupidly heavy (2 Tonnes) and countered with much more power, the market demands refinement and you end up having to go stupidly quick to have any fun which is totally at odds with our roads. The weight, tech and refinement have taken over from the drive, when they are piping engine muzak in the car there is something wrong. Out Ford Galaxy would for me be as quick as an M5 on any given journey as realistically I don't go much over 85 due to fear of losing my licence so the firepower to do another 100 mph is somewhat redundant, couple that with being stuck behind Doris, roadworks, speed cameras and the fact you will be papping yourself for two weeks after each blast and getting frustrated the rest of the time it does seem a bit pointless.
People now say that the new Toybaru is woefully underpowered, no its Toyata and Subaru giving the market what it needs not what it think it wants, where do the Germans go from here, another 100 kilos for the next one, so it needs another 50 bhp, its like a Junkie coming off drugs by using Smack to help. Said it before but in here a lot seem to just play Top Trumps and are dissapointed in a car based on it not having 100 bhp more than its last incarnation or its nearest competitor, then wheel out a "Special" 911 with 250 bhp from the mist of time and they get all reverential.
Its a wonderful thing (the M5) and I would love to try one but cant help thinking its a bit over the top and time we stopped focusing on bhp and straight line power so much.
I know, im going
People now say that the new Toybaru is woefully underpowered, no its Toyata and Subaru giving the market what it needs not what it think it wants, where do the Germans go from here, another 100 kilos for the next one, so it needs another 50 bhp, its like a Junkie coming off drugs by using Smack to help. Said it before but in here a lot seem to just play Top Trumps and are dissapointed in a car based on it not having 100 bhp more than its last incarnation or its nearest competitor, then wheel out a "Special" 911 with 250 bhp from the mist of time and they get all reverential.
Its a wonderful thing (the M5) and I would love to try one but cant help thinking its a bit over the top and time we stopped focusing on bhp and straight line power so much.
I know, im going
I do sometimes wonder this.
There are very few occasions when our (modest compared to many cars) 335d doesn't feel pokey enough. And even driving that hard, I'm constantly backing off and taking dodgy corners carefully. A full bore blast on almost anything (and this is Cornwall - out of season it has some brilliant roads) would be suicidal. Even having a lot of fun in North Wales, I was cautious all the time.
I cannot imagine getting the most out of something like a 911 Turbo without killing myself or others - it's not grip, power or anything else - it's common sense and safety.
I reckon the most fun you can have is in stuff that's fun to drive at well under a tonne. Something like a Caterham or dare I say it. an MX5.
There are very few occasions when our (modest compared to many cars) 335d doesn't feel pokey enough. And even driving that hard, I'm constantly backing off and taking dodgy corners carefully. A full bore blast on almost anything (and this is Cornwall - out of season it has some brilliant roads) would be suicidal. Even having a lot of fun in North Wales, I was cautious all the time.
I cannot imagine getting the most out of something like a 911 Turbo without killing myself or others - it's not grip, power or anything else - it's common sense and safety.
I reckon the most fun you can have is in stuff that's fun to drive at well under a tonne. Something like a Caterham or dare I say it. an MX5.
Vladimir said:
I do sometimes wonder this.
There are very few occasions when our (modest compared to many cars) 335d doesn't feel pokey enough. And even driving that hard, I'm constantly backing off and taking dodgy corners carefully. A full bore blast on almost anything (and this is Cornwall - out of season it has some brilliant roads) would be suicidal. Even having a lot of fun in North Wales, I was cautious all the time.
I cannot imagine getting the most out of something like a 911 Turbo without killing myself or others - it's not grip, power or anything else - it's common sense and safety.
I reckon the most fun you can have is in stuff that's fun to drive at well under a tonne. Something like a Caterham or dare I say it. an MX5.
335d, modest, now there is a first for those two words in a sentence !There are very few occasions when our (modest compared to many cars) 335d doesn't feel pokey enough. And even driving that hard, I'm constantly backing off and taking dodgy corners carefully. A full bore blast on almost anything (and this is Cornwall - out of season it has some brilliant roads) would be suicidal. Even having a lot of fun in North Wales, I was cautious all the time.
I cannot imagine getting the most out of something like a 911 Turbo without killing myself or others - it's not grip, power or anything else - it's common sense and safety.
I reckon the most fun you can have is in stuff that's fun to drive at well under a tonne. Something like a Caterham or dare I say it. an MX5.
It has 300 ish bhp and massive torque, its as fast as you will realistically ever need on the road and then 50%.
The only reason these cars are viable is the electronics, I remember Police forces getting the old E36 325TD and coppers killing themselves, or at least sliding off the road as they werent used to that much torque, imagine the carnage with the current crop from the German marques if there was no ESP or Traction control, even with 4wd a 500 bhp Cayenne would be a liability, almost like Eurofighters that cant be flown by the pilot without the avionics controlling most of it. Not saying gthis is you or any of the PH driving gods but our neighbours let their 20 year old son out in a 535D.
FreeLitres said:
Ever tried a TVR?
Nope, but I cant wait, plan is current 944 S2 for a bit, get used to 210 bhp through the rears with no gizmos's and then trade up to a Chimaera or Griffith with another 100 and a rake more torque.Most cars nowadays just require you to not plough into something or go into a blind bend too quickly, does focus the attention not having your electronic mummy there and a car that will just do as you will tell it, even if that includes full boot in second on a wet roundabout.
Average shopping trolley is hinting on power a car only had in the extreme 30 years ago, there is still a lot to do on performance, which electric cars will make.
4.0-liter inline-6 (282 hp, 288 lb-ft)
0–60 mph: 8.1 seconds
2.0-liter inline-4 (150 hp, 130 lb-ft)
0–60 mph: 8.2 seconds
2.0-liter inline-4 (140 hp, torque N/A)
0–60 mph: 9.6 seconds
5.3-liter V-8 (hp N/A, torque N/A)
0–60 mph: 7.8 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/double-o-slow...
4.0-liter inline-6 (282 hp, 288 lb-ft)
0–60 mph: 8.1 seconds
2.0-liter inline-4 (150 hp, 130 lb-ft)
0–60 mph: 8.2 seconds
2.0-liter inline-4 (140 hp, torque N/A)
0–60 mph: 9.6 seconds
5.3-liter V-8 (hp N/A, torque N/A)
0–60 mph: 7.8 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/double-o-slow...
J4CKO said:
335d, modest, now there is a first for those two words in a sentence !
It has 300 ish bhp and massive torque, its as fast as you will realistically ever need on the road and then 50%.
The only reason these cars are viable is the electronics, I remember Police forces getting the old E36 325TD and coppers killing themselves, or at least sliding off the road as they werent used to that much torque, imagine the carnage with the current crop from the German marques if there was no ESP or Traction control, even with 4wd a 500 bhp Cayenne would be a liability, almost like Eurofighters that cant be flown by the pilot without the avionics controlling most of it. Not saying gthis is you or any of the PH driving gods but our neighbours let their 20 year old son out in a 535D.
Mad! I remember a mate of mine being allowed to drives his Dad's mates new 740i. aged about 18 We all went for a ride, he clipped a kerb hard and bent the axle - DOH!It has 300 ish bhp and massive torque, its as fast as you will realistically ever need on the road and then 50%.
The only reason these cars are viable is the electronics, I remember Police forces getting the old E36 325TD and coppers killing themselves, or at least sliding off the road as they werent used to that much torque, imagine the carnage with the current crop from the German marques if there was no ESP or Traction control, even with 4wd a 500 bhp Cayenne would be a liability, almost like Eurofighters that cant be flown by the pilot without the avionics controlling most of it. Not saying gthis is you or any of the PH driving gods but our neighbours let their 20 year old son out in a 535D.
I usually disable traction when on my own (and it's dry) and have had the odd heart stopping moment. Double the power, lose some weight and losing it becomes really nasty. I constantly have in my mind when doing certain speeds "if something really unexpected happesnlike a blow out, I'm dead - no questions." Doesn't stop the odd silly speed blast on roads with good sight lines but it's still a sobering thought. Multiply that by many times for something like a 458. For some reason the FQ360 I tried on Cornish back roads somehow felt fairly safe even at silly speeds. Which is probably dangerous in itself...
Are all modern cars irrelevant?
Huge heavy wheels, wallet sapping tyres, mortgage busting brake disks, horrifying engine power to drag the whole sorry load of crap along the road, electronic gizmos to keep the overweight leaden driving 'experience' in one piece.
Dull dull dull and depressingly expensive to have any fun. Boring and slow or fast, dangerous and licence losing. You could have fun driving older cars at most speeds, now the leaden grasp of weight, excessive power and grip makes it less interesting than the bus.
Huge heavy wheels, wallet sapping tyres, mortgage busting brake disks, horrifying engine power to drag the whole sorry load of crap along the road, electronic gizmos to keep the overweight leaden driving 'experience' in one piece.
Dull dull dull and depressingly expensive to have any fun. Boring and slow or fast, dangerous and licence losing. You could have fun driving older cars at most speeds, now the leaden grasp of weight, excessive power and grip makes it less interesting than the bus.
I agree with the OP. This has been said on PH before, and always got a very mixed reaction from PH, where max BHP and fastest Nurburgring lap times seem to be so important... Top Trumps cars.
I want a 4 seater 'fun' car for road use and realize the last thing I need is a super-capable electronically balanced supercar which makes 120mph feel like 60mph. The challenge for me is to find a modern (galvanized) 4 seater sportscar with character.
I want a 4 seater 'fun' car for road use and realize the last thing I need is a super-capable electronically balanced supercar which makes 120mph feel like 60mph. The challenge for me is to find a modern (galvanized) 4 seater sportscar with character.
One of the (many) reasons I own a very basic lotus.
Straight line performance is adequate. It's too soft for the track. It's set up to understeer if you get on the throttle too soon. It's borderline perfect for a back roads.
I rarely think it needs more shove (well, an extra 10% would be nice).
Always entertaining.
Straight line performance is adequate. It's too soft for the track. It's set up to understeer if you get on the throttle too soon. It's borderline perfect for a back roads.
I rarely think it needs more shove (well, an extra 10% would be nice).
Always entertaining.
I have some sympathy with the view. If you have no access to a track or the autobahn, you are barely touching the performance of a really quick car without being completely illegal. Where I live in Canada, on a hot day in the summer you will see amazingly exotic machinery slowly circulating the entertainment district past the patios, allegedly looking for parking, but actually cruising. ( the waitstaff call them 'loser laps
). Its as good a reason as any , I suppose.
Obviously there are many serious and enthusiastic drivers, and most of the performance marques organize track days from Spring to Autumn. Its always a risk driving to and from the track. A favourite time for the boys in the cruisers to issue a ticket or too for the overcommitted. I think it all based on why you bought the car. I do not find performance cars much fun in slow,heavy traffic, and frankly am just as happy in an automatic, or even a Smart car.
). Its as good a reason as any , I suppose. Obviously there are many serious and enthusiastic drivers, and most of the performance marques organize track days from Spring to Autumn. Its always a risk driving to and from the track. A favourite time for the boys in the cruisers to issue a ticket or too for the overcommitted. I think it all based on why you bought the car. I do not find performance cars much fun in slow,heavy traffic, and frankly am just as happy in an automatic, or even a Smart car.
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