RE: Lotus Poised To 'Twist Key' On Esprit's New V8

[cathalm]

scampbird said:

Oh don't be so condescending.

Let's turn it around, where is *your* proof that it will succeed? I have plenty of proof in my own mind thanks. Lotus V8, going to be saviour of the Steven's Esprit. Turned out to be not very good and not terribly reliable and mated to the worlds crappest gearbox. M250, didn't happen. Evora? Yes, its a brilliant drive. Selling many? Ha.

All I'm asking is that they quieten down a bit, stop coming out with this utter rubbish "we'll deliver 500 new models in 3 years" or whatever it will be next. If they've got the funding already then shut up and start delivering.

I wont talk down to you if don't write things like "I have plenty of proof in my own mind"- deal?

Again, I'm not saying that it will succeed, but if I was then I would say why I think that would be the case and thus contribute to the debate. I'm simply calling for some balance and for those that are hugely negative to either justify it for our benefit or to come out and admit that there is a personal desire or beef behind it.

I don't want to get into the Evora sales figures debate, been done before and is usually massively overstated, the targets were pretty low in the first place in Cayman terms after all. Take your point on the Esprit V8, although again I suggest you're exaggerating things somewhat.

Why should they shut up and start delivering, what kind of retarded business would not promote their crucial future plans as heavily as they can? Is it unreasonable that the head of engine design should speak to a motoring forum about his plans and not be belittled and rubbished?

[SWoll]

julian64 said:

If lotus build this car, and use a bespoke engine, then they become the sucessor to TVR.

The only reason I bought my Cerbera was because it was an entirely British exotic including the engine. I also wanted V8. The flant plane crank was just a bonus.

There was no other British car to buy at the time that did this. I want a ferrari made in britain.

I wouldn't pay £123K for one though. If that came down to about 70-80K I would because the car would fullfill the rest of my criteria.

Maybe the car is for me second hand about two years after launch then .

I do hope they go ahead.

I dont see any connection between new Lotus and TVR personally other than them being made in Britain and having a reputation for unreliability.

For me TVR's image (other than amongst owners) was of a manufacturer that produced fairly rudimentary cars with big engines that where good in a straight line and made a nice noise. Predominantely bought by the 'hairy chest' brigade who bemoan any sort of electronic assistance and are willing to put up with average to poor build quality and worse reliablity so they can drive something 'different'. I applaud all of you who bought them because it is nice to see people making decisions with their hearts rather than their heads, but if you truly believe that TVR were the 'British Ferrari' IMHO you sir are deluded.

[kambites]

Junglehop said:

Huge shame they decided to Can the Elan as this was the looker of the bunch in my view. dropped as it was too close to the esprit apparently.

Did they? It's still listed on the group Lotus website.

[cathalm]

I believe the Elan wasn't canned but pushed back. They also had feedback that it looked too much like the Esprit so a redesign might be in order. think the plan is to introduce Elan at the end of the Evoras natural life, rather than cutting that short.

[kambites]

So what is the order?

Esprit > Elite > Elise S3 > Eterne > Elan

[SWoll]

julian64 said:

I could go and buy a second hand TVR Cerbera with no engine for 5K, I could then stick a Chevy LS9 in it for probably another fifteen.

Mega car peformance that would probably embarrass any one of those cars for £20K.

On a drag strip I'm sure it would (assuming the gearbox/clutch lasted more than 5 mins), but on road or track when actually 'driving' the car I think I know who would be embarrassed....

[Mullah]

jaik said:

The difference being that the world knows Audi is a global brand and can build a solid, reliable car. If the thing looks good, goes well and gets good reviews, it'll sell as it did.

The general perception of Lotus (whether right or wrong) is a relatively small outfit with a poor track record for reliability. If it looks good, goes well and gets good reviews, people will still need to be convinced it's worth the money.

i guess you're right, i feel that if you know the guy running this thing is ex amg engines devision then you feel comfortable buying it, but the general populace just don't know. Is the evora unreliable? i've heard good things about that car, even though it didn't sell well.

[typezerora]

bobr said:

That front end is very Gallardo-esque

My thoughts exactly, everything seems to have the Gallardo/Murci look to it - When I read Espirit I expected something of that old "spirit"

[Mr Whippy]

SWoll said:

julian64 said:

I could go and buy a second hand TVR Cerbera with no engine for 5K, I could then stick a Chevy LS9 in it for probably another fifteen.

Mega car peformance that would probably embarrass any one of those cars for £20K.

On a drag strip I'm sure it would (assuming the gearbox/clutch lasted more than 5 mins), but on road or track when actually 'driving' the car I think I know who would be embarrassed....

If you set it up well it should be capable.

Tubular frame covered in lightweight GRP.

Doesn't sound too far from the Noble M600 (ok, big stretch but stick with me)

It's clearly shown it's fapping fast and on a par with the MP4 12C and F458, so it's not a big stretch to assume that good old engineering and suspension can still do the trick vs fancy ESP/leccy diffs and active aero etc etc...


From the look and sound of things, TVR just didn't develop their chassis properly till the last model or so...

Take the carbon body off the M600, and replace it with GRP if possible (not sure how much is structural etc), and/or aluminium etc, and expect to sell a thousand not a few hundred tops, and I imagine it could end up rather cheap and bloody capable, all with what are ultimately TVR levels of purity...

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 22 June 13:52

[zebedee]

scampbird said:

I have owned 2 Elises and recently test drove an Evora, which was a car I was interested in buying. I have been to the factory twice, I was a member of the official Lotus club back in the day and have spent far too many hours on Lotus forums.

At no point did I mention the Elise. Its a fine, fun little car, if slightly spoiled by a constant desire to push it "up market".

Again, apologies for having an opinion.

You did, you said this: "Its fine when they have a wealth of great products to back it up, but right now they don't. They have a range of mildly disappointing sports cars."

Given that their range is the Evora and the Elise (not sure if they still make the Europa?), then you described them as mildly disappointing, which sets you in a very small minority I think. Unless you are talking sales volumes, but it didn't come across as if you are.

[zebedee]

SWoll said:

I dont see any connection between new Lotus and TVR personally other than them being made in Britain and having a reputation for unreliability.

Yawn, new Lotus does not have a reputation for unreliability. The Elise has never been an 'unreliable' car and please, please, PLEASE don't someone respond with 'K-series engine HGF' comments - Lotus didn't make that and so many other manufacturers have engines that had worse problems but seem not to be panned for it!

[Toffer]

Chris-R said:

TheRoadWarrior said:

It sounds great.

Unfortunately it also sounds like a load of nonsense.


The spec list sounds like it was writted by some 6-yr old top trumps enthusiast- brand new V8 stressed-member engine, 600bhp, hub motors, super lightweight, we'll take it racing blah blah.

Never gonna see the light of day.

There was a chap from Proton who signs the cheques listening to this presentation. His £400million says it's going to happen.

Ok...but how do they get their 400 million back with some profit?

[gnm321]

Reliability?!? I thought this was Pistonheads....if you are concerned about reliability there are plenty of faceless cars for you to purchase. Suprisingly, the least reliable car I had was a factory tuned TT Roadster that consumed 2 engines while an old Chimp kept going through all weathers for the year I had it.

[SWoll]

Mr Whippy said:

SWoll said:

julian64 said:

I could go and buy a second hand TVR Cerbera with no engine for 5K, I could then stick a Chevy LS9 in it for probably another fifteen.

Mega car peformance that would probably embarrass any one of those cars for £20K.

On a drag strip I'm sure it would (assuming the gearbox/clutch lasted more than 5 mins), but on road or track when actually 'driving' the car I think I know who would be embarrassed....

If you set it up well it should be capable.

Tubular frame covered in lightweight GRP.

Doesn't sound too far from the Noble M600 (ok, big stretch but stick with me)

It's clearly shown it's fapping fast and on a par with the MP4 12C and F458, so it's not a big stretch to assume that good old engineering and suspension can still do the trick vs fancy ESP/leccy diffs and active aero etc etc...

Dave

That is too much of a stretch for me MrW. Still think the original poster was talking bks and you're not much better

[scampbird]

zebedee said:

You did, you said this: "Its fine when they have a wealth of great products to back it up, but right now they don't. They have a range of mildly disappointing sports cars."

Given that their range is the Evora and the Elise (not sure if they still make the Europa?), then you described them as mildly disappointing, which sets you in a very small minority I think. Unless you are talking sales volumes, but it didn't come across as if you are.

I do think the current Elise is mildly disappointing. It has a poor engine, it looks dated. If I was looking for that sort of thing right now I'd prefer to get an older model.

[SWoll]

zebedee said:

SWoll said:

I dont see any connection between new Lotus and TVR personally other than them being made in Britain and having a reputation for unreliability.

Yawn, new Lotus does not have a reputation for unreliability. The Elise has never been an 'unreliable' car and please, please, PLEASE don't someone respond with 'K-series engine HGF' comments - Lotus didn't make that and so many other manufacturers have engines that had worse problems but seem not to be panned for it!

Perhaps not in the industry, though I'm still not entirely convinced, but I'm sure that amongst the general public this is still the case.

I still remember my dad telling me that Lotus stood for Loads Of Trouble Usually Serious. Difficult to get away from that kind of reputation, whether fair or not.

[julian64]

SWoll said:

I dont see any connection between new Lotus and TVR personally other than them being made in Britain and having a reputation for unreliability.

For me TVR's image (other than amongst owners) was of a manufacturer that produced fairly rudimentary cars with big engines that where good in a straight line and made a nice noise. Predominantely bought by the 'hairy chest' brigade who bemoan any sort of electronic assistance and are willing to put up with average to poor build quality and worse reliablity so they can drive something 'different'. I applaud all of you who bought them because it is nice to see people making decisions with their hearts rather than their heads, but if you truly believe that TVR were the 'British Ferrari' IMHO you sir are deluded.

Little bit difficult to answer that until I know a little more about you. If your comment about TVR's image is from the perspective of an adolescent driving his mums punto then there isn't much to say.

If its from the perspective someone middle aged who drives a Jag, or possible a eurobarge then I can understand why you would see the drivers aids as a benefit rather than a curse.

If you are someone who knows anything about build quality you will see that build quality is a trade off between money and performance for those of us who wouldn't go out and spend £123K. A trade off that some of us are prepared to make for a better driving experience, and prepared to put our money where our mouths are so to speak.

Which again begs the question, from what car standpoint are you talking?

[nickythesaint]

Big fan of Lotus, you have my full support and I hope your ambitious plans work out.

Ignore the haters/doubters they're probably American and currently touching themselves looking at a picture of a ZR-1.

[Bash Brannigan]

zebedee said:

Bash Brannigan said:

Should Lotus not have re-thought the commercial value in such a broad product range since the Evora was a sales flop? I like the design of this Esprit, but in a time where Proton owned Lotus is coming up against several competitors from VAG then they really have to question whether there is enough of a gap in the market to sell sufficient numbers of these things.

you don't think they have done that? You think they just decided to do it after a few pints in the Norfolk Arms one night? Good grief.

Frankly if you look at the blinkered arrogance of many car producers who think that they have a realistic chance against large companies then yes, I bloody do think that. Given your comments on other people's posts then I can only assume that you are taking these sceptical ideas somewhat personally.

The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?

Good grief my arse.

[joz8968]

MarJay said:

So we've got the 458 italia, The MP4-12C and the Esprit... how many more achingly similar mid engined super cars are we going to have? Lotus could have tried to be a bit different couldn't they?

I was thinking along similar lines...

Thing is, the Esprit's obviously been in gestation for a while. So, unfortunately for Lotus, they have been somewhat 'guzumped' (perhaps 'usurped' is more appropriate) by those other marques' offerings.

Unfair to criticise Lotus IMO - it's just unfortunate that they've been 'trumped' in the market place, so to speak.

Edited by joz8968 on Wednesday 22 June 14:45