RE: PH Blog: go with the flow

[Gixer_fan]

I think it's 20 years too late to be thinking about a satisfying 'flowing' A-road drive - at least down South. I'm lucky to get 2 miles down my favourite stretch before being stuck behind a Micra / SUV / 4X4 / whatever doing 35mph and STILL breaking for every bend in the road....grrr

[Munich]

Gixer_fan said:

I think it's 20 years too late to be thinking about a satisfying 'flowing' A-road drive - at least down South. I'm lucky to get 2 miles down my favourite stretch before being stuck behind a Micra / SUV / 4X4 / whatever doing 35mph and STILL breaking for every bend in the road....grrr

I know exactly what you mean. To solve it I moved to Germany and now drive in the Alps..

[JSE993]

Dan, a great item which articulates well the reason why some drives remain memorable.

Another honourable mention for the Alfasud, which gave me some of my early and most satisfying drives. A common theme is that to flow nicely a car must be balanced, in the sense that the control weights match, heel-and-toeing is natural, the steering has feel and isn't too light, the engine isn't too powerful in its context, - well suited to the brakes, gear ratios, suspension compliance etc. Riding well over bumps helps. A car with turbo lag is harder to make flow unless you have a very open road (I'm thinking of Integrale, 944 Turbo SE), but on the open road, when you can drive around the lag, the sense of satisfaction is the same. 968CS had great flow, as did the Multipla JTD. Another aspect of flow is when passengers remain relaxed (and even compliment your driving) when proper progress is being made.

[Ex Boy Racer]

I think I'm a little late on this topic, but I have got to say something!!!
Dan's article is spot on, and I'm sure resonates with any keen driver. But everyone seems to have misinterpreted it... He didn't say slow cars flow, so they're better than fast ones. He said slow cars CAN flow, just like fast ones can, so don't rule them out. Likewise, some slow ones, as well as fast ones, just don't. It's not the speed, it's the delivery.

However, I have to say that my R8 flows beautifully when that's what I want, but is also scary, mad, brutal and far too fast when I fancy that dish instead. I like to have the choice...

Ps. Dan - great article - you have come on since you blasted 911 cabrios just cos they didn't have a roof!!

[ewenm]

Summary:

Fun > Stats

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Fantastic! A PH editorial that intersects with an Advanced Driving subject and doesn't take the piss.

My impression (based on a limited number of cars) is that most can be driven with 'flow' on the right road, but that some make you work much harder for it than others. It's taken me absolutely ages to get to the point where I'm happy with the way I can drive the S60 on a country road, but only twenty minutes in a hired Mondeo on the Isle of Man to get to the same point.

A car that works with rather than against you is rewarding in a different way to simply big power. A combination of the two would be nice, but as has been said, opportunities to fully exploit it aren't common.

As there might be a sympathetic audience on this thread, I can't resist some selective quoting:

masermartin said:

I can't help agreeing with some of the comments though that it's almost more of a state of mind for the driver than it is a factor of the car.

DeadMeat_UK said:

I've just had my 5th drive with an IAM instructor. My ability make the car flow has gone up by a large percentage as a result. I cover roads more smoothly and at a higher average speed than before, and much less pointy/squirty.

I'd heartily recommend it to anyone who enjoys these types of drives and want to get even more out of them.

redgriff500 said:

chandrew said:

It's just a shame their isn't an automotive equivalent of the red-suited Swiss ski instructor.

Oh but there are:

http://www.hpc.org.uk/

There are other organisations that can help with development too, and driver training is the only modification that'll make every single car you drive smoother and faster.

[Oddball RS]

Rawwr said:

mybrainhurts said:

WTF..?

Remember, rinse is followed by spin...

That's just begging to be a tshirt!

I like.......... :-)

[ALY77]

Spot on. This is why I have a Mk1 Focus RS instead of my old Escort Cosworth. Mates still think I'm nuts though.

[thiscocks]

Totally agree! And the reason I am perfectly happy with 100bhp and 80 lbs/ft!!

[johnyt993]

Dan Trent said:

mrmr96 said:

So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Though part of it must be that properly fast cars have got easier to drive properly fast.

That GT3 example I raised in the piece - it's always taken me a little while to ease into the experience but, boy, once I have... As a couple of unfortunate passengers will attest! Part of that is that to really rinse a GT3 makes much greater demands of you as a driver. First time I drove one I moaned that the pedals seemed really badly placed and weighted for heel and toe but then it dawned on me that they *were* spot on but only when you were completely on it and using the kind of brake and throttle applications you would when really committed. Just one of the many reasons I love those cars.

So, yes, you can get that sense of flow out of a seriously capable car but, by heck, you need to think carefully about when/where you might do that. So I guess that's where a slower/less powerful car might be advantageous, purely because it might open up more opportunities.

But, like I say, it's more subtle than that and not just about how fast or slow you're going. It's about how you feel doing it. And how the sensations from the car, from its controls to the noise it makes, contribute to that.

I've also found that when you start 'flowing', the faster the car, the sooner you could across traffic! This seems to be the main reason for lack of flow in the south-east of the UK. Unless you know the road very well this tends to ruin your flow... (obviously if you have more BHP you can get past the traffic quicker but still…)

Still finding the flow in my 993c2, its definitely there, just slowly getting to know it.

The reality is, it’s often more about the road then the car! Although car mags and even top gear occasionally talk about particular roads, they tend to be several hundred miles away from where most of us live.
Apologies for using more mountain biking analogies but these magazines have the usual pages of ‘buy this bike it’ll make you faster/happier/better in bed’ crap, but then they also have pages and pages of local routes to go and enjoy… this element seems to be lacking in most forms of car journalism; it’s usually a footnote in the ‘buy this new car’ article, or if one certain magazine is to be believed can only be found in a three sided part of north wales!
What about all the great roads all over the country!
Let’s hear more articles about them I say, so we can all go and enjoy them in our hugely varied motors and compare notes. Wouldn’t it be great to know how enjoyable a road which you know well is to a S1 Land Rover owner, and a Gallardo driver!
Road of the month? (different county/region every month to stop a monopoly!)

[100SRV]

LuS1fer said:

Mini 1000 - you had to develop flow as it was the art of going fast by never going slow. Lose the momentum and you were back among the underpowered sloggers.

Very true - I think I learnt this in my diesel Land Rover and my 1 litre AX flows nicely enough on A and B roads to to keep up with (and want to overtake) less skilfully driven but more capable cars.

[Cheib]

Turbo Harry said:

Cheib said:

go off piste and challenge yourseld in the tight and twisty moguls.

If you're going off-piste to find moguls, you're doing it wrong.

Wise words.....but we all know that you have to go through moguls at some stage to get to or from the really good stuff.

[Munich]

Dan Trent said:

mrmr96 said:

So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Though part of it must be that properly fast cars have got easier to drive properly fast.

That GT3 example I raised in the piece - it's always taken me a little while to ease into the experience but, boy, once I have... As a couple of unfortunate passengers will attest! Part of that is that to really rinse a GT3 makes much greater demands of you as a driver. First time I drove one I moaned that the pedals seemed really badly placed and weighted for heel and toe but then it dawned on me that they *were* spot on but only when you were completely on it and using the kind of brake and throttle applications you would when really committed. Just one of the many reasons I love those cars.

So, yes, you can get that sense of flow out of a seriously capable car but, by heck, you need to think carefully about when/where you might do that. So I guess that's where a slower/less powerful car might be advantageous, purely because it might open up more opportunities.

But, like I say, it's more subtle than that and not just about how fast or slow you're going. It's about how you feel doing it. And how the sensations from the car, from its controls to the noise it makes, contribute to that.

and I for one don't want to be sent to jail when finding the flow.

A few years back my daily commute was 30 miles across country over the South Downs. A lot of fun, but finding the flow meant frequently hitting 100+ which felt OK in terms of preception of speed (as it didn't feel too fast), but had the police pulled me over I would have been in a world of trouble.

[Gozza]

Read a book recently about the design of the Ferrari Dino and it had some of design conundrums they worked through and one was about why position the engine amidships rather than at the front or rear and their thoughts were very much about not having too much weight stuck out the front or the back, so when in turns the car doesn't use the inertia (is that the right term) from the heavy engine hung at one end or the other making the car bow or stern 'happy' . Mid engine provides the best, most neutral, option and probably the best flow. Does that still hold true with all the improvements in technology?

Used to have a 911 which was very backend twitchy, now have a Boxster, which seems to have infinitely more 'flow'

[firebird350]

Good article, Dan. Once ran a Fiat X1/9 and a Strada Abarth simultaneously and these two unlikely bedfellows really emphasised your point. The test road in question (a lifelong favourite) is the A39 (North Cornwall/Devon/Somerset) and both cars entertained hugely in their many times along this route.

The Abarth obviously had the grunt and would really tear up the tarmac but, man, you had to hang on! It was satisfying and fast but a real wrestle. The X1/9 was obviously slower but supremely 'thinkable' in its delicacy of response thanks to a finely-balanced chassis, well-chosen ratios and sublime steering - hence the flow.

Thought I'd found the best of both these two Italian worlds when I acquired an S2 Lancia Montecarlo (the one without the servo!) and, yes, it nearly did - but the X1/9 just (only just) shades it.

Good that so many people got your point, Dan (well, we ARE PH'ers!) and have enjoyed the feedback as it's highlighting the good 'flower's' out there, which, as has been said, the roadtest magazines don't really cut us in on.

[cspknowles]

Flow: is this the same as 'chuckability' - or the opposite?

[JohnGoodridge]

johnyt993 said:

Dan Trent said:

mrmr96 said:

So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Though part of it must be that properly fast cars have got easier to drive properly fast.

That GT3 example I raised in the piece - it's always taken me a little while to ease into the experience but, boy, once I have... As a couple of unfortunate passengers will attest! Part of that is that to really rinse a GT3 makes much greater demands of you as a driver. First time I drove one I moaned that the pedals seemed really badly placed and weighted for heel and toe but then it dawned on me that they *were* spot on but only when you were completely on it and using the kind of brake and throttle applications you would when really committed. Just one of the many reasons I love those cars.

So, yes, you can get that sense of flow out of a seriously capable car but, by heck, you need to think carefully about when/where you might do that. So I guess that's where a slower/less powerful car might be advantageous, purely because it might open up more opportunities.

But, like I say, it's more subtle than that and not just about how fast or slow you're going. It's about how you feel doing it. And how the sensations from the car, from its controls to the noise it makes, contribute to that.

I've also found that when you start 'flowing', the faster the car, the sooner you could across traffic! This seems to be the main reason for lack of flow in the south-east of the UK. Unless you know the road very well this tends to ruin your flow... (obviously if you have more BHP you can get past the traffic quicker but still…)

Still finding the flow in my 993c2, its definitely there, just slowly getting to know it.

The reality is, it’s often more about the road then the car! Although car mags and even top gear occasionally talk about particular roads, they tend to be several hundred miles away from where most of us live.
Apologies for using more mountain biking analogies but these magazines have the usual pages of ‘buy this bike it’ll make you faster/happier/better in bed’ crap, but then they also have pages and pages of local routes to go and enjoy… this element seems to be lacking in most forms of car journalism; it’s usually a footnote in the ‘buy this new car’ article, or if one certain magazine is to be believed can only be found in a three sided part of north wales!
What about all the great roads all over the country!
Let’s hear more articles about them I say, so we can all go and enjoy them in our hugely varied motors and compare notes. Wouldn’t it be great to know how enjoyable a road which you know well is to a S1 Land Rover owner, and a Gallardo driver!
Road of the month? (different county/region every month to stop a monopoly!)

Great post Dan! My 2c is that flow is found in the relationship between the elements not in the elements themselves. A case of right road, right car, right time, right driver. For instance F1 drivers can always 'tell' from a first drive on track whether that year's car is going to be a good un'. Right driver: because IMHO there's few outside that circle who can 'flow' with an F1 car, right car, right road (track).

But what about the car? Russel Bulgin wrote a good piece in EVO about this a few years ago, and what I remember from it he talked about the following: balance of elements - no one element involved in the driving experience overwhelms any other; feedback loops - a resolved feedback loop between input, car and environment; and a linearity of response - stuff happens predictably and in a manageable way. There were some others as well but that's not a bad starter for 10!

[Timmychim]

I loved all my cars for different reasons:

Mk3 MX5 (2.0 and 1.8) - best for achieving that zen like state of connection with the road

S2000 - Pure excitement - keeping it fizzing above 6000 revs corner to corner was great. although the lack of steering feel deadened the 'flow' compared to the mazda

TVR Chim 400 - noise, polishing it, noise, looking at it shop windows as I go past, diagnosing and fixing it so it can make more even noise

[Gorbyrev]

john banks said:

Good write up.

Agree entirely on the Puma, and many Fords from about 10 years ago.

There is a sense of flow with many cars that have nice damping, well weighted controls, good feedback, but also good ride quality/refinement and a smooth engine, especially if not four cylinders. An automatic gearbox is no disqualifier, neither is something with a lot of power.

E46 M3 and Mk V Golf GTI are two cars that I've rarely got to flow because their suspension is so wrong on many UK roads. R35 GTR and Evo IX could do it in some circumstances, but the bonkers speed often inhibited it so it was more a manic keeping up with the abilities of the cars. If you don't try too hard in the GTR and the road isn't too rough it can flow very well indeed, but sometimes it is just too full on when you want to relax and then something like my old Legacy H6 auto flows beautifully in the most horrid conditions.

My cooking 2.0 Legacy estate flows beautifully. Just this morning I was going down the twisties from Temple to Gorebridge behind a Pug DERV MPV thing which was going as fast as me but he was braking for every corner and I didn't break once. Could have gone faster but had a big smile on my face for the mechanical joy of the experience. Great article Dan and the reason that £1000 is really all you need to get a driver's car. Seeing as we are talking about flowing cars - how about "Tap of the Week", a car for under a grand that can turn on the flow and be a great garage companion for the Shed right beside it!

Edited by Gorbyrev on Monday 9th January 17:01

[jordannicholls92]

Cant agree enough, when you and the car are mixing perfectly its such a great driving moment. I agree, cars with less everything, power, toys, even electronics like esp or abs can make it better