RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
KDIcarmad said:
It's funny how some small British car marks seem to last, take Morgan, Aston Martin and until recently Bristol.
Aston go bust and they badge is revived on a regular basis.Bust in 1924
Bust in 1925
Bust in 1975
The firm also gets into regular financial difficulties and is passed onto another lot of businessmen.
Looking at their ageing line up and low sales, I don't think it will be long before they are passed on again.
So a lot of the good things that have come out of Lotus recently are probably due to the decisions made by Danny Bahar... The problem is, I don't think Lotus has a strong enough brand to follow the same strategy as Ferrari. How many people outside of the UK genuinely think of Lotus products when they see a Lotus branded F1 car? The merchandise may well be good quality, but who really wants to walk around in Lotus branded clothing in the same way people do with Ferrari?
Oh dear, here we go.
Actually, I'm most annoyed at the original article. Bahar has been gone for two weeks and they're 'turning things around'? Signs of the new administration are... a sculpture that was commissioned, what, six months ago? Sales have dropped 200%? The new store (Bahar's idea) is good? No information on the link between the Evora hybrid and the Infiniti emerg-e?
Frankly, you'd expect one of the biggest motoring publications in the UK, with intimate links with the sports car industry to come up with something a bit more insightful and informative.
Anyone who's been watching this year's farce knows the reason behind the sales drop, and as for the rest.. The article started with a question. Why ask it if you're not capable of answering?
Actually, I'm most annoyed at the original article. Bahar has been gone for two weeks and they're 'turning things around'? Signs of the new administration are... a sculpture that was commissioned, what, six months ago? Sales have dropped 200%? The new store (Bahar's idea) is good? No information on the link between the Evora hybrid and the Infiniti emerg-e?
Frankly, you'd expect one of the biggest motoring publications in the UK, with intimate links with the sports car industry to come up with something a bit more insightful and informative.
Anyone who's been watching this year's farce knows the reason behind the sales drop, and as for the rest.. The article started with a question. Why ask it if you're not capable of answering?
otolith said:
Fittster said:
From a business case point of view the Elise was a flop. They didn't and can't make money selling cheap cars to skint enthusiasts.
I would not agree with that - I would say that they failed to capitalise upon the opportunity that the unexpected success of the Elise gave them. The cars were not updated and compelling new models were not forthcoming.In fairness, I didn't realise it was a commercial failure though.
MX7 said:
kambites said:
In Lotus' main target markets (Malaysia, etc) how many people had a TV last time Lotus were in F1?
28.I don't think that the Far East is realistically the main target for Lotus yet. DB seemed to put the greatest emphasis in the American market, although how successful that was is questionable.
In the meantime though, they have been driving around in their Proton Savvys.
And I'm sure Mr Bond didn't do the brand any harm globally.
I suppose it depends whether they're happy to be a brand bought by beardy enthusiasts and "alternative" types.
Edited by kambites on Friday 6th July 16:49
Jeez, no wonder Lotus are struggling. This thread alone is full of contradictory and wildly different opinions as to what Lotus is and what Lotus should be...
Seems to be quite simple to me:
They don't make enough cars, therefore the ones they do make have to be a bit too expensive because they don't have economy of scale. Because they are a bit too expensive, they don't sell enough, and so we go on ad infinitum until the money runs out.
The answer?
a) Raise the quality of your product offering to justify the extra cost,
b) go specialist and niche with a lower volume product, sack a load of people and downsize, or
c) get a s
t load of debt from someone to make more cars at a lower price and move some volume, hoping that some creative accounting and a rich owner will sort it all out later on.
Easy. Take your pick.
Seems to be quite simple to me:
They don't make enough cars, therefore the ones they do make have to be a bit too expensive because they don't have economy of scale. Because they are a bit too expensive, they don't sell enough, and so we go on ad infinitum until the money runs out.
The answer?
a) Raise the quality of your product offering to justify the extra cost,
b) go specialist and niche with a lower volume product, sack a load of people and downsize, or
c) get a s
t load of debt from someone to make more cars at a lower price and move some volume, hoping that some creative accounting and a rich owner will sort it all out later on.Easy. Take your pick.
toppstuff said:
The answer?
a) Raise the quality of your product offering to justify the extra cost,
b) go specialist and niche with a lower volume product, sack a load of people and downsize, or
c) get a st load of debt from someone to make more cars at a lower price and move some volume, hoping that some creative accounting and a rich owner will sort it all out later on.
Pretty much; the question is, which? a) Raise the quality of your product offering to justify the extra cost,
b) go specialist and niche with a lower volume product, sack a load of people and downsize, or
c) get a s
t load of debt from someone to make more cars at a lower price and move some volume, hoping that some creative accounting and a rich owner will sort it all out later on.The problem with the current Lotus cars is that handling is the only thing they do well. And let's face it, proper drivers are few and far between these days so that just isn't enough. These days people want image and dual-clutch gearboxes from their performance cars.
If we dissect the Evora: it looks rubbish, sounds rubbish, the interior is rubbish, build quality is rubbish, the gearbox is rubbish and it costs 75 grand. Is it any surprise the Evora isn't selling?
Off-topic but loosely related: the Lotus IndyCar engines are also st.
If we dissect the Evora: it looks rubbish, sounds rubbish, the interior is rubbish, build quality is rubbish, the gearbox is rubbish and it costs 75 grand. Is it any surprise the Evora isn't selling?
Off-topic but loosely related: the Lotus IndyCar engines are also s
t.The Crack Fox said:
Hybrid Evora ? Oh FFS, what a way to burn money they don't have.
The Evora 414E was developed in conjunction with several industry partners and largely funded by the Governments Technology Strategy Board. Yes, we taxpayers paid for its development. As was the eLimo (I think that's what it was called) Lotus did in partnership with Jaguar a while back, which put their range extender in the front of an XJ.It works so well that Infiniti stuck a sexy body on it, called it the Emerg-e and Lotus has engineered two fully working prototypes, one of which I saw take off up the Goodwood Hill on Saturday like a scalded cat, driven by Mark Webber (although it did break down later).
There are strong indications Infiniti may put it into limited production as a halo model with Lotus front and centre as their key partner. Revenue they desperately need.
Using all the standard Evora hard points, its a good looking machine.
It makes me laugh when people say that Lotus Cars should stay true to Chapman’s principals. Reality is that successive management has done exactly that! Each has committed exactly the same folly as the great man.
The Seven was a success. The gorgeous and ingenious Elite was a step too far.
The Elan was dynamite, but the Europa ill-judged and the new Elite a move way too far upmarket.
More recently the Elise was quite perfect, but the Europa S crude and stupid, while the Evora was exactly like the second Elite - a brilliant ride aimed at an audience preferring to put their faith in more rigorously engineered products.
Few could argue that Danny Behr was anything other than all-mouth-and-no-trouser, but that the Europa S didn’t move the Elise on, was the squander. That was the opportunity lost.
But whereas Chapman could always find a few hard core enthusiasts for his under-developed products, that’s not the case when the same market is devoured between heavyweights, such as Porsche, BMW and the like.
Back then, Lotus products, F1 or sports cars were pure Colin Chapman. What Kimi drives today has no link with Lotus products whatsoever. Ironically Caterham may achieve a link and continue to grow, while Lotus is divided up and sold.
So hear's a thought, Caterham should buy the rights to manufacture the Elise.
The Seven was a success. The gorgeous and ingenious Elite was a step too far.
The Elan was dynamite, but the Europa ill-judged and the new Elite a move way too far upmarket.
More recently the Elise was quite perfect, but the Europa S crude and stupid, while the Evora was exactly like the second Elite - a brilliant ride aimed at an audience preferring to put their faith in more rigorously engineered products.
Few could argue that Danny Behr was anything other than all-mouth-and-no-trouser, but that the Europa S didn’t move the Elise on, was the squander. That was the opportunity lost.
But whereas Chapman could always find a few hard core enthusiasts for his under-developed products, that’s not the case when the same market is devoured between heavyweights, such as Porsche, BMW and the like.
Back then, Lotus products, F1 or sports cars were pure Colin Chapman. What Kimi drives today has no link with Lotus products whatsoever. Ironically Caterham may achieve a link and continue to grow, while Lotus is divided up and sold.
So hear's a thought, Caterham should buy the rights to manufacture the Elise.
caine100 said:
The problem with the current Lotus cars is that handling is the only thing they do well. And let's face it, proper drivers are few and far between these days so that just isn't enough. These days people want image and dual-clutch gearboxes from their performance cars.
What depresses me is the idea that in this global market in which over one billion cars are in use, there are not enough buyers who aren't quite as shallow as you think they are to keep one little British company in business. I don't actually think it's true, I think a well enough run company could continue to fill that niche. Perhaps if Lotus does fail, Caterham or Ginetta will emerge from its shadow to do so.
caine100 said:
If we dissect the Evora: it looks rubbish, sounds rubbish, the interior is rubbish, build quality is rubbish, the gearbox is rubbish and it costs 75 grand. Is it any surprise the Evora isn't selling?
Looks are subjective, and the interior build quality and gearbox have all been vastly improved in the later cars. It doesn't cost 75 grand, the 'S' starts at 64k, which is 7 grand cheaper than a 991 for almost identical performance stats and better ride and handling.cbbibb said:
It makes me laugh when people say that Lotus Cars should stay true to Chapman’s principals. Reality is that successive management has done exactly that! Each has committed exactly the same folly as the great man.
The Seven was a success. The gorgeous and ingenious Elite was a step too far.
The Elan was dynamite, but the Europa ill-judged and the new Elite a move way too far upmarket.
More recently the Elise was quite perfect, but the Europa S crude and stupid, while the Evora was exactly like the second Elite - a brilliant ride aimed at an audience preferring to put their faith in more rigorously engineered products.
Few could argue that Danny Behr was anything other than all-mouth-and-no-trouser, but that the Europa S didn’t move the Elise on, was the squander. That was the opportunity lost.
But whereas Chapman could always find a few hard core enthusiasts for his under-developed products, that’s not the case when the same market is devoured between heavyweights, such as Porsche, BMW and the like.
Back then, Lotus products, F1 or sports cars were pure Colin Chapman. What Kimi drives today has no link with Lotus products whatsoever. Ironically Caterham may achieve a link and continue to grow, while Lotus is divided up and sold.
So hear's a thought, Caterham should buy the rights to manufacture the Elise.
The Elise may have been 'quite perfect', but lotus couldn't have carried on with the Elise as its sole product. Since its , Lotus have had ONE year where they made a profit (2007 i think).The Seven was a success. The gorgeous and ingenious Elite was a step too far.
The Elan was dynamite, but the Europa ill-judged and the new Elite a move way too far upmarket.
More recently the Elise was quite perfect, but the Europa S crude and stupid, while the Evora was exactly like the second Elite - a brilliant ride aimed at an audience preferring to put their faith in more rigorously engineered products.
Few could argue that Danny Behr was anything other than all-mouth-and-no-trouser, but that the Europa S didn’t move the Elise on, was the squander. That was the opportunity lost.
But whereas Chapman could always find a few hard core enthusiasts for his under-developed products, that’s not the case when the same market is devoured between heavyweights, such as Porsche, BMW and the like.
Back then, Lotus products, F1 or sports cars were pure Colin Chapman. What Kimi drives today has no link with Lotus products whatsoever. Ironically Caterham may achieve a link and continue to grow, while Lotus is divided up and sold.
So hear's a thought, Caterham should buy the rights to manufacture the Elise.
harryowl said:
caine100 said:
If we dissect the Evora: it looks rubbish, sounds rubbish, the interior is rubbish, build quality is rubbish, the gearbox is rubbish and it costs 75 grand. Is it any surprise the Evora isn't selling?
Looks are subjective, and the interior build quality and gearbox have all been vastly improved in the later cars. It doesn't cost 75 grand, the 'S' starts at 64k, which is 7 grand cheaper than a 991 for almost identical performance stats and better ride and handling.The ride and handling is nothing short of incredible, if more people gave them a chance and actually drove them they would buy them.
The main problem with the Evora is the price, specced up with the packs that you really need and you are pushing on £70k. It isn't a £70k car, if it was £50k new that would be a different matter.
It doesn't help Lotus much, but second hand, a year old S with just under 2k miles on the clock is a fantastic buy at £40k. I should know, I just bought one
I have no idea why they aren't selling in droves. What is the competition for the Elise? I see no alternative for people wanting something similar. In fact, all I see is Alfa and Renault saying they're going to produce a car that looks similar to the Elise in concept. I'd also personally rather have an Evora over anything near the money.
harryowl said:
The Elise may have been 'quite perfect', but lotus couldn't have carried on with the Elise as its sole product. Since its , Lotus have had ONE year where they made a profit (2007 i think).
Maybe they could have - if not loaded with all the overheads and pretensions? Chapman was a flash fellow - Artiole and Behr similarly so, with illusions of grandeur. On the other hand Caterham just got on with it. If the magic recipe is for low volume cars sold to skint enthusiasts, as someone put it, then Caterham's low key approach shows it can work. Thing is, the Seven was about 15 years old when Chapman sold the rights. How old is the Elise now?jcl said:
I have no idea why they aren't selling in droves. What is the competition for the Elise? I see no alternative for people wanting something similar. In fact, all I see is Alfa and Renault saying they're going to produce a car that looks similar to the Elise in concept. I'd also personally rather have an Evora over anything near the money.
Why are they not selling in droves? Because they are selling the same product as they sold ten years ago, they have not advanced one bit - a few different engines, some slight bodywork changes, and a lot of stripes. I have owned four Elise derivatives, and enjoyed them for what they were, I would like to own another but it really needs to be a new proposition before I will part with my cash again. In short you cannot keep selling the same product to the same people forever. If it were me at the helm, I would rebody the Elise, and move the interior upmarket to make it more liveable and appealing. The failure in getting an Esprit replacement off the ground is simply shocking. That combined with the fact that Lotus lose money on every car they produce will ultimately lead to the demise of the company - although I sincerely hope not.For me, the simple fact of the matter, is that here and now in 2012, the pure "performance car" is dead. Even on an enthusiasts site like this 50% of the people don't think they'd buy one, so what hope do they have in the wider world, where, like it or not, and ignoring the truths and mistruths, CO2, fuel economy, interior quality, crahs safety, practicality, reliability, and image all play a vastly greater part in the majority car buyers decision making process. There are some exceptions, like the Evoke, where people will pay over the odds for a niche model because it's cool. But those models on their own can't keep a modern car company afloat.
Competition is now incredibly fierce, the major OEM's have model lineups that span across a massively wide cross section of markets and platforms, from sprts cars, SUV's saloons, supercars, cross overs hybrids, coupes, faux X fours etc etc. People have choice and are taking it!
Add in a recesion, where really only the super premium products are inaffected (people spending >£100k on a car will always have the money to do so, even in a recesion. People stretching up to say £50k are the first to stop buying). Unfortunately, at this time, Lotus haven't got a Brand that can support a premium or super premium product. It takes time to build that confidence and attract a new segment of buyers.
For me, the only obvious gap in the market (and it's a bit smaller gap now the scooby toyota BRZ GT 86 has appeared) is for an affordable, ultra efficient but fun sports car, something Lotus should be able to do easily? No, they won't make millions of pounds of profit from doing so (unlike the potential revenue stream from an ultra premium model line up) but it might just have saved the company...........
Competition is now incredibly fierce, the major OEM's have model lineups that span across a massively wide cross section of markets and platforms, from sprts cars, SUV's saloons, supercars, cross overs hybrids, coupes, faux X fours etc etc. People have choice and are taking it!
Add in a recesion, where really only the super premium products are inaffected (people spending >£100k on a car will always have the money to do so, even in a recesion. People stretching up to say £50k are the first to stop buying). Unfortunately, at this time, Lotus haven't got a Brand that can support a premium or super premium product. It takes time to build that confidence and attract a new segment of buyers.
For me, the only obvious gap in the market (and it's a bit smaller gap now the scooby toyota BRZ GT 86 has appeared) is for an affordable, ultra efficient but fun sports car, something Lotus should be able to do easily? No, they won't make millions of pounds of profit from doing so (unlike the potential revenue stream from an ultra premium model line up) but it might just have saved the company...........
Fittster said:
SpunkyM said:
12 plate pre-registered MX5 1.8i SE = £13,952
The fact that Mazda have had to discount a car that much shows just how tough the sports car market is.I love lotus and would hate to see them disappear but the MX-5 is just unbeatable value at these prices for the vast majority of people.
propaganda said:
Why are they not selling in droves? Because they are selling the same product as they sold ten years ago, they have not advanced one bit - a few different engines, some slight bodywork changes, and a lot of stripes. I have owned four Elise derivatives, and enjoyed them for what they were, I would like to own another but it really needs to be a new proposition before I will part with my cash again. In short you cannot keep selling the same product to the same people forever. If it were me at the helm, I would rebody the Elise, and move the interior upmarket to make it more liveable and appealing. The failure in getting an Esprit replacement off the ground is simply shocking. That combined with the fact that Lotus lose money on every car they produce will ultimately lead to the demise of the company - although I sincerely hope not.
How are Caterham still selling 7's then? What would/did you buy to replace the Elise? Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff