RE: Tell Me I'm Wrong: Porsche 911 996 GT3
Discussion
agtlaw said:
And that's also the thing with the GT3 mark 1, it's not an RS.
Not wishing to appear awkward, but what relevance does this comment have to this thread ? The 996 GT3RS is/was touted as addressing the Mk2 GT3s chassis "issues" those centred in my experience and many journalists at the time as well, on the Mk2 steering feel on initial turn in (we won't mention the Mk2s ill-chosen for UK roads, spring and damper rates) which required a leap of faith when compared with the Mk1s turn in.Whilst it's possible to engineer some of that turn in response back into the chassis with a slightly more aggressive geo set up, it still leaves you with damper and spring rates that are less than ideal for the UKs roads, a point John Barker alluded to in the Evo top ten best drivers cars article.
The Mk2 car is better finished inside, it's engine is stronger at the top end of its rev range, the brakes better for track use, the gearbox ? well I've never had an issue with my Mk1s 'box, but I consider myself to be mechanically aware and sympathetic. . . . . .
As a Mk1 owner I'm happy to admit the later car is an improvement, but only in some areas.
Looks ? well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one mans meat is another mans poison etc . . . . . . .
Chris - thankyou for further validating my recent purchase. And your inclusion of Speed yellow 996.2 GT3(for the pedants)photos is all the more pleasing. I find it quite like my old exige 240r to drive in anger.
Why did I go 2 vs 1? Firstly because at the time I could not find a quality mark 1 - and I was looking for a machine to drive not a piece of automotive sculpture to oggle ( a la Panigale?).
The mark 2 is usefully newer (important wrt things like aircon condensers, prone to corrosion) and I was more able to find a high quality car. That it goes harder, stops faster and, to my eyes, looks and feels fresher at a lower cost was the clincher.
All I have had done is the Geo attending to for a more track-suitable drive. Everything else is stock.
Why did I go 2 vs 1? Firstly because at the time I could not find a quality mark 1 - and I was looking for a machine to drive not a piece of automotive sculpture to oggle ( a la Panigale?).
The mark 2 is usefully newer (important wrt things like aircon condensers, prone to corrosion) and I was more able to find a high quality car. That it goes harder, stops faster and, to my eyes, looks and feels fresher at a lower cost was the clincher.
All I have had done is the Geo attending to for a more track-suitable drive. Everything else is stock.
[quote=Chris Harris]
Drive a good 2.7 and it will always feel magnificent, and still quick today.
Here's the rub. Drive a 997 GT3 and a 996 Gen2 GT3 and they feel pretty similar in terms of power, torque and overall performance. Then drive GT3 gen 1 and it just feels breathless. How does that make it more special than the car which replaced it? I agree with almost all of EVO's verdicts, in fact I wrote many of them myself! But the GT3 gen.1 thing is subjective bobbins. Plain and simple.
A GT3 breathless? Come on thats just a throwaway comment any n/a engine producing even 350bhp isnt breathless ,let alone a glorious IMO the finest engine produced in a road car you will say a GT3 is slow next....
Drive a good 2.7 and it will always feel magnificent, and still quick today.
Here's the rub. Drive a 997 GT3 and a 996 Gen2 GT3 and they feel pretty similar in terms of power, torque and overall performance. Then drive GT3 gen 1 and it just feels breathless. How does that make it more special than the car which replaced it? I agree with almost all of EVO's verdicts, in fact I wrote many of them myself! But the GT3 gen.1 thing is subjective bobbins. Plain and simple.
A GT3 breathless? Come on thats just a throwaway comment any n/a engine producing even 350bhp isnt breathless ,let alone a glorious IMO the finest engine produced in a road car you will say a GT3 is slow next....
squirejo said:
Terminator X said:
sege said:
That's if there's any 996's left after the last of them blows it's RMS! 
TX.
afrochicken said:
The GT3 can have an RMS "failure" just like any other 911. Heck, just like virtually any other engine. It's just an oil seal, seals can leak.
Oh OK so M96/7 engines dont suffer with RMS failure as a design fault in any greater numbers than any other engine out there?....Really??(unlike GT1 Metzger granite engined models)
Gary11 said:
afrochicken said:
The GT3 can have an RMS "failure" just like any other 911. Heck, just like virtually any other engine. It's just an oil seal, seals can leak.
Oh OK so M96/7 engines dont suffer with RMS failure as a design fault in any greater numbers than any other engine out there?....Really??(unlike GT1 Metzger granite engined models)
afrochicken said:
The GT3 can have an RMS "failure" just like any other 911. Heck, just like virtually any other engine. It's just an oil seal, seals can leak.
Stick a Honda engine in there... 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Gary11 said:
Quat said:
This seems like a silly argument – surly the next generation of most cars are faster and handle better but it doesn’t make the older cars less desirable . If it did no one would buy 2.7 RS’s or 964 RS’s and I’d be able to afford one.
Exactly!The old 911 enigma ,newer, faster, more modern should equal better but really doesnt...in reality that is.
The older cars might be the poster boys for looks and feel but progress on safety systems and build is part of the appeal for newer Porsche.
Gary11]hris Harris said:
Drive a good 2.7 and it will always feel magnificent, and still quick today.
Here's the rub. Drive a 997 GT3 and a 996 Gen2 GT3 and they feel pretty similar in terms of power, torque and overall performance. Then drive GT3 gen 1 and it just feels breathless. How does that make it more special than the car which replaced it? I agree with almost all of EVO's verdicts, in fact I wrote many of them myself! But the GT3 gen.1 thing is subjective bobbins. Plain and simple.
A GT3 breathless? Come on thats just a throwaway comment any n/a engine producing even 350bhp isnt breathless ,let alone a glorious IMO the finest engine produced in a road car you will say a GT3 is slow next....
Read the full sentence old bean: it's all about context. After the Gen.2 car, the Gen.1 feels much, much weaker. Fact. In isolation, of course it's a fast car. N one said it wasn't.Here's the rub. Drive a 997 GT3 and a 996 Gen2 GT3 and they feel pretty similar in terms of power, torque and overall performance. Then drive GT3 gen 1 and it just feels breathless. How does that make it more special than the car which replaced it? I agree with almost all of EVO's verdicts, in fact I wrote many of them myself! But the GT3 gen.1 thing is subjective bobbins. Plain and simple.
A GT3 breathless? Come on thats just a throwaway comment any n/a engine producing even 350bhp isnt breathless ,let alone a glorious IMO the finest engine produced in a road car you will say a GT3 is slow next....
But does it make it any less of a good car?
If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
Modern cars leave me cold. I look for a "sweet" package when buying a car - talkative steering, just enough power, and an appropriate noise. Every iteration of a model I now drive seems worse as far as my criteria are concerned.
That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
Harris_I said:
Modern cars leave me cold. I look for a "sweet" package when buying a car - talkative steering, just enough power, and an appropriate noise. Every iteration of a model I now drive seems worse as far as my criteria are concerned.
That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
Goes for BMW`s too, they have really lost it - trying to compete on allroundness and lifestyle. On Audis premsises in other words. That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
Modern BMW`s does nothing for me anymore, E90 and E60 started the downwards slide and the F10 and F20 are both fat and ugly
Alnassma said:
But does it make it any less of a good car?
If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
Haven't use the word 'faster' in that last post. I'm talking about delivery characteristics - the gen.2 has much better response, far more mid-range, sounded better. It was and is much more pleasant to operate the gen.1 motor. Sharper, much more like the 996 Cup engine. That it is also miles faster is just an added bonus. If that doesn't make it better, I'm not sure what does. If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
Alnassma said:
Harris_I said:
Modern cars leave me cold. I look for a "sweet" package when buying a car - talkative steering, just enough power, and an appropriate noise. Every iteration of a model I now drive seems worse as far as my criteria are concerned.
That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
Goes for BMW`s too, they have really lost it - trying to compete on allroundness and lifestyle. On Audis premsises in other words. That applies to Mondeos as much as 911s. (Has anyone noticed how Fords just don't feel involving any more?)
Besides, most track day drivers are a long way off extracting the max from their machinery, so a mark 1 still does the business.
Modern BMW`s does nothing for me anymore, E90 and E60 started the downwards slide and the F10 and F20 are both fat and ugly
Chris Harris said:
Alnassma said:
But does it make it any less of a good car?
If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
Haven't use the word 'faster' in that last post. I'm talking about delivery characteristics - the gen.2 has much better response, far more mid-range, sounded better. It was and is much more pleasant to operate the gen.1 motor. Sharper, much more like the 996 Cup engine. That it is also miles faster is just an added bonus. If that doesn't make it better, I'm not sure what does. If we are to use the fact that its slower then that can be said for nearly every car whos successor will no doubt be faster.
Does the 997.1 GT3 make the MK2 996 GT3 feel breathless.
"-------997.2 GT3-------------" 997.1 GT3... ad finitum..
The question we should asking is whether driving a Mk1 GT3 makes you yearn for more power?
It laps the nurnburnring in 8 minutes flat ( less with cups), Id say its adequate.
Im not sure the fact that the MK2 is faster automatically makes it a better car. Ok it has a more powerful engine, unsurprisingly... still?
But Im happy to debate the issue with you mister Harris.
That being said - very interesting if true seeing as the MK1 is quickly becoming the more expensive motor. Maybe the Mk2 is the hidden gem?
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