RE: The end of M

[Al 450]

astirling said:

[quote=Al 450
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.

I don't agree with this - I don't believe that someone in the market for an M3 will look at a 320d and think hey, if I get an M-sport it looks almost the same, I'll have one of them instead.

You're arguing the extremes here, my point was that both cars look more and more similar due to the proliferation of M sport badged and bodykitted lesser models which has eroded a lot of the cachet of a real M car. It's not about someone choosing a 320d instead rather the damage to the brand making an M3 less desirable.

The E46 M3 was a great looking car and well received due to the wide arches, deep bumpers etc but in comparison you'd struggle to spot an E92 against an M sport kitted 320 coupe if it wasn't for the quad exhausts.

[MattCSLnut]

St John Smythe said:

I think the E46 M3 was the last proper M. Cracking cars.

Without a doubt the E46 M3 is corker however IMHO it's the M3 CSL that's the ultimate incarnation of the E46 and more importantly one of BMW MotorSport greatest hits
On that note... I'm off to duck for cover for being completely and utterly bias.

[eliotrw]

My next car will be a M3 CSL.
I like big upgrades see....
I will fettle with my 306 GTi-6 until then, I'm a drivers car kind of guy...

[E38Ross]

Ali_T said:

BeirutTaxi said:

It's always stood for marketing. They've never made any money from the M models.

Never the point of halo models, though. They bring in customers and the plaudits and image rub off on the 318d drivers to keep them coming back for more.

that's his point.....they boost brand image etc.

[y2blade]

MattCSLnut said:

y2blade said:

I wondered where he'd gone.

BUSTED !

[Hellbound]

E38Ross said:

i love how you've missed off the original M3 convertible, original M3 saloon, M6, M535i, M5 touring (E34) etc etc to make the current market somehow seem "worse"

Erm, my entire post was highlighting how current M cars offer far more to customers than they ever have done in the past.

The whole 'end of M' angle is massively flawed. It's never been stronger.

[Hellbound]

0836whimper said:

I don't think they do, for most buyers it goes something like this :

- Need a BMW on the drive rather than a Vauxhall/Citroen etc
- Need an 'M' in the name because it doesn't cost much more and ensures I don't get beaten in golf club one-upmanship
- Definitely need to be able to connect my iphone and maybe warm my bum (don't want a poverty spec base model)
- Don't care about ride quality, all-weather practicality or if it's actually a 118d

As actual driving machines, they don't really care. Unlike most people on here.

They would never be in the market for a full on M car anyway. It's quite a jump from a 118d M Sport to a 1M Coupe.

[Killboy]

They've managed to dilute the cars so much they have resorted to making them sound better through the speaker system. I think that sort of tells all.

[161BMW]

Hellbound said:

E38Ross said:

i love how you've missed off the original M3 convertible, original M3 saloon, M6, M535i, M5 touring (E34) etc etc to make the current market somehow seem "worse"

Erm, my entire post was highlighting how current M cars offer far more to customers than they ever have done in the past.

The whole 'end of M' angle is massively flawed. It's never been stronger.

He means the end of BMW M's traditional values of a Proper M RWD, high revving NA engine, LSD ....

If Porsche and Ferrari can keep designing and building high revving NA engines why cannot BMW M ?
This would make the M X5 M X6 more bearable.

Also brand new cars do tend to ride very very well. The E46 M3 didn't have the best ride.

2009 was the last year of proper M cars as everything they sold was high revving NA.

Few people want the hardcore cars of the like of M3 CSL, M3 GTS hence they sold in small numbers. If everyone on PH wanted and would cough up £60k for a new one BMW would build them all ....

If the M3 Coupe name is going to die I would rather it die with the E92 as this is the last proper M3. Would like to see the V8 go in a Z4 Coupe though .... :-)

[Leins]

Haven't seen one mention of Alpina in this thread so far. For me BMW ///M is really encroaching on their turf recently

Funny how only 5 years ago Gerhard Richter was dismissing much of what has subsequently come to pass as not fitting in with the ///M character e.g. improving power-to-weight by only increasing power more than weight; turbo-charging; diesels; etc

[161BMW]

Leins said:

Haven't seen one mention of Alpina in this thread so far. For me BMW ///M is really encroaching on their turf recently

Funny how only 5 years ago Gerhard Richter was dismissing much of what has subsequently come to pass as not fitting in with the ///M character e.g. improving power-to-weight by only increasing power more than weight; turbo-charging; diesels; etc

Bring back Gerhard Richter FTW

[gforceg]

gareth_r said:

Since this is PH, where grammar pedantry matters, may I point out that disinterested means unbiased, and uninterested means not interested?

Quite. Where would you say "indifferent" sits between the two?
I like that word. Indifferent. Not used enough.

[Hellbound]

MattCSLnut said:

St John Smythe said:

I think the E46 M3 was the last proper M. Cracking cars.

Without a doubt the E46 M3 is corker however IMHO it's the M3 CSL that's the ultimate incarnation of the E46 and more importantly one of BMW MotorSport greatest hits
On that note... I'm off to duck for cover for being completely and utterly bias.

I thought we'd already established that the E46 M3, to some PHers, is nothing more than a taxi.

Now would be a good time for Chris Harris to turn up and say "Yeah..a fookin' ring taxi...!"

You get the feeling that quite a few PHers would have preferred it if BMW hadn't bothered with the M135i and just went ahead and released a 1M hatchback instead, priced around £45k but with the same performance stats.
The extortionate price, electro-mechanical diff and slightly flared arches would have made it 'special' you see.

[Amirhussain]

Luca Brasi said:

Who cares? We all know the days of the high-revving n/a petrol engine are almost over. As long as they're still brilliant to drive (and they probably will be) I don't care how many models there are or what BMW call them.

+1

[jbi]

so basically he is admitting BMW can't compete with the american muscle cars?

[RDMcG]

I have owned many BMWs including an E39 M5 and a E63 M6. I think what nade them special was that they had very unique engines among other things. The V8 in the E39 and the V10 in the E63 were not tuner versions of base engines but M only production. My sense is the the brand has become debased by having a lot of tuner versions of base cars.

[jonnydm]

Just dug up an essay that I did on Marketing for uni which I based on BMW M and in particular this article: http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/tester%E2%80%99s-no...

And for what its worth, I'm a massive BMW & M fan and current owner.

[E38Ross]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

and the S52 and S54 based lightly on the M52 and M54.

even the "halo" E30 M3's engine was based from the M10. in fact, most M engines are based on other engines in road-going models. the only ones that aren't that i can think of quickly are the V10 in the E60 M5/E63 M6 and the V8 in the current M3.

[E38Ross]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

i stand corrected, said the man in the orthopaedic shoes.

but isn't the S50 based on the M50, which in turns also means the S54 is also based on a non "M" engine....which was largely what my point was. may be wrong though.

[DJRC]

So if this results in the death of "M3 man" and 90% of "enthusiasts" leaving the BMW fold, does that mean that those of us who were brought up on M meaning Dieter Quester, E9 CSLs and turbo charged nutter cars can reclaim the brand whilst you all fk off elsewhere?

Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?