RE: Geneva Motor Show 2013: Porsche
Discussion
jon- said:
Is it me, or in this photo is it wearing Dunlop tyres?
http://www.evo.co.uk/front_website/gallery.php?id=...
That's only interesting because there's quite a close Michelin / Porsche connection...
Yep shows dunlops in the vid.http://www.evo.co.uk/front_website/gallery.php?id=...
That's only interesting because there's quite a close Michelin / Porsche connection...
Scenario: (It’s a scenario cos I can’t afford the reality)
I am rather successful my business, whatever it is. I like fast cars. I have several including a 997GT3. Its spiritual home is the race track so I do a few track days.
A circuit XXXX my best lap time is 1m 20.6s and I am very pleased with it. I borrow a 991 GT3 and after a few laps my best is 1m 15.6s
Do I care about manual vs pdk in the bar/pits afterward? Ooh, I like my manual because it’s 5 seconds slower.
Roses, smell and wake up....
I am rather successful my business, whatever it is. I like fast cars. I have several including a 997GT3. Its spiritual home is the race track so I do a few track days.
A circuit XXXX my best lap time is 1m 20.6s and I am very pleased with it. I borrow a 991 GT3 and after a few laps my best is 1m 15.6s
Do I care about manual vs pdk in the bar/pits afterward? Ooh, I like my manual because it’s 5 seconds slower.
Roses, smell and wake up....
turbo-ww said:
Scenario: (It’s a scenario cos I can’t afford the reality)
I am rather successful my business, whatever it is. I like fast cars. I have several including a 997GT3. Its spiritual home is the race track so I do a few track days.
A circuit XXXX my best lap time is 1m 20.6s and I am very pleased with it. I borrow a 991 GT3 and after a few laps my best is 1m 15.6s
Do I care about manual vs pdk in the bar/pits afterward? Ooh, I like my manual because it’s 5 seconds slower.
Roses, smell and wake up....
I guess it depends on the individual but yes I guess most will go with the bragging rights afforded by the time?I am rather successful my business, whatever it is. I like fast cars. I have several including a 997GT3. Its spiritual home is the race track so I do a few track days.
A circuit XXXX my best lap time is 1m 20.6s and I am very pleased with it. I borrow a 991 GT3 and after a few laps my best is 1m 15.6s
Do I care about manual vs pdk in the bar/pits afterward? Ooh, I like my manual because it’s 5 seconds slower.
Roses, smell and wake up....
Plainview23 said:
True - but they're now end-of-era in a very important way. And are (relatively) limited in production.
I don't own one yet. But I will choose either LONG ahead of this new variant.
I am probably with you, but we don't know what this new car is like yet! I am betting that most 7 owners will be smitten and will move up.I don't own one yet. But I will choose either LONG ahead of this new variant.
traffman said:
I cannot comment really on it being pdk only as i havent even driven a manual one.
Be interesting to see what Evo thinks.
Pure automotive porn though...wonder how the residuals on the 997 gt3 will stack up?
unaffected imo, half the price and manual gearbox means the different models cater for different buyers.Be interesting to see what Evo thinks.
Pure automotive porn though...wonder how the residuals on the 997 gt3 will stack up?
If anything they might rise a bit in price given the lack of a manual option, no mezger engine and a few other disappointing things...
Some may be abhorred by the lack of the Metzger engine, however, if you watch the video over at EVO it becomes clear that the Metzger engine itself is nearing the end of its line and that the engine in the 991 GT3 will serve as its point of origin.
So the lack of Metzger is because the Metzger itself is going away in due time. The reason why it still exists in the Cup cars is because it's a known quantity, and they don't want to rush something that they'll sell to privateers. Disappointing 911 enthusiasts creates controversy, but disappointing privateer racing drivers would be a disaster of epic proportions, considering Porsche's prominence in motorsport.
---
As for the PDK and EPAS, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. As someone who *has* used sequential transmissions in racing cars, trust me when I say there's an emotional connection. If Porsche can nail that raucous feeling and ludicrous response in a GT3 road car, I think folks will warm up to it rather quickly by choosing to pull/push the gear lever (and not using the SportDesign wheel's rear-mounted paddles). Proper sequential gearboxes are fun; it's the ones that are phoned in that disappoint.
As for EPAS, we'll see. This is their first real chance to iterate on it since the 991/981's release. I've driven a 981S and it was a bit odd, but that's mostly just on account of being used to hydraulic units (and cars with busier steering such as Lancer Evolutions and Mazda MX-5s). Odds are they'll iterate on EPAS again for the 991.2 and 981.2. It's here to stay, so it's best for us to give as much real-world feedback as possible so they can continue to improve it.
To me, this is water-cooling all over again.
So the lack of Metzger is because the Metzger itself is going away in due time. The reason why it still exists in the Cup cars is because it's a known quantity, and they don't want to rush something that they'll sell to privateers. Disappointing 911 enthusiasts creates controversy, but disappointing privateer racing drivers would be a disaster of epic proportions, considering Porsche's prominence in motorsport.
---
As for the PDK and EPAS, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. As someone who *has* used sequential transmissions in racing cars, trust me when I say there's an emotional connection. If Porsche can nail that raucous feeling and ludicrous response in a GT3 road car, I think folks will warm up to it rather quickly by choosing to pull/push the gear lever (and not using the SportDesign wheel's rear-mounted paddles). Proper sequential gearboxes are fun; it's the ones that are phoned in that disappoint.
As for EPAS, we'll see. This is their first real chance to iterate on it since the 991/981's release. I've driven a 981S and it was a bit odd, but that's mostly just on account of being used to hydraulic units (and cars with busier steering such as Lancer Evolutions and Mazda MX-5s). Odds are they'll iterate on EPAS again for the 991.2 and 981.2. It's here to stay, so it's best for us to give as much real-world feedback as possible so they can continue to improve it.
To me, this is water-cooling all over again.
Edited by Goofnik on Tuesday 5th March 01:51
To me the key thing about Porsche GTx's is their involvement whether at 30mph or 180mph. I haven't driven one so I can't comment but imo a manual makes the car feel that much more of an event to drive when you're pootling around at 30mph going to the shops and running errands in the summer. Why would I want a car that I can leave in automatic or that demands so little involvement when driving in a straight line that I may as well be chauffered? I drove a 997GTS-4 recently with PDK and the engine sounded nice yes but it was rather uninvolving even when caning it; the manual 964 I drove around the block at 30mph a few years ago changed my life.
I feel like Porsche is the canary in the mine when it comes to manuals and its death in the GT3 signals the death-knell for manuals in performance cars imo. No manual in any Lamborghini now or Ferrari. Audi said it would be gone in the R8 soon. BMW will surely get rid in the M3 in the next few years. Jaguar and Maserati dont have them anymore either. Only Aston, Dodge Viper and Corvette are flying the manual flag now. Hot hatches and cheap diesel hatches have them but surely they will move to DSGs, autos or CVTs only soon enough because if your average GT3 driver can't be botherd to change gear himself, god knows your average mum or 17yo in a Focus can't either.
Oh and perhaps its because of the size but I just don't like this GT3 and I've liked every single one since the 996. Oh well. Progress and all that.
I feel like Porsche is the canary in the mine when it comes to manuals and its death in the GT3 signals the death-knell for manuals in performance cars imo. No manual in any Lamborghini now or Ferrari. Audi said it would be gone in the R8 soon. BMW will surely get rid in the M3 in the next few years. Jaguar and Maserati dont have them anymore either. Only Aston, Dodge Viper and Corvette are flying the manual flag now. Hot hatches and cheap diesel hatches have them but surely they will move to DSGs, autos or CVTs only soon enough because if your average GT3 driver can't be botherd to change gear himself, god knows your average mum or 17yo in a Focus can't either.
Oh and perhaps its because of the size but I just don't like this GT3 and I've liked every single one since the 996. Oh well. Progress and all that.
I completely understand why they're offering it with PDK -- it's quicker -- but the lack of a manual 'box means I'm not a buyer, period. I have no interest at all in owning a Porsche without a gear lever and a clutch pedal. For me, the GT3 would be a road car first, a track day car second. My priority, therefore, is fun and driver involvement first. Lap times come second, unless and until I become a professional racer (highly unlikely). I get no pleasure out of a paddle 'box on the road at anything less than maximum attack -- it's just flipping an electric switch.
So:
1) No manual gearbox
+ 2) Cup car uses Mezger engine -- they obviously don't have enough faith in the new GT3 engine to race it (at least not yet)
+ 3) EPAS -- seriously sad in the Carrera, but an utter travesty in a GT3. Yes, I've driven the 991, and the steering gave next to no feedback until driving in max attack mode. That can't be done often on the street, which is where I do most of my driving, and I want steering feel not just at the limit but always, including the aspects and frequencies of feel that Porsche has declared I don't need
= No interest in owning one.
To those posters who have pointed out the enthusiastic interviews with the Porsche engineers: Seriously, what did you expect them to say???
I don't like Porsche telling me what I don't want or need (steering feel, a clutch pedal, a race-worthy engine in my street 911, etc.). I know what I want, and I'm afraid Porsche doesn't build it anymore.
Edited to add: Black Prince, very well said.
So:
1) No manual gearbox
+ 2) Cup car uses Mezger engine -- they obviously don't have enough faith in the new GT3 engine to race it (at least not yet)
+ 3) EPAS -- seriously sad in the Carrera, but an utter travesty in a GT3. Yes, I've driven the 991, and the steering gave next to no feedback until driving in max attack mode. That can't be done often on the street, which is where I do most of my driving, and I want steering feel not just at the limit but always, including the aspects and frequencies of feel that Porsche has declared I don't need
= No interest in owning one.
To those posters who have pointed out the enthusiastic interviews with the Porsche engineers: Seriously, what did you expect them to say???
I don't like Porsche telling me what I don't want or need (steering feel, a clutch pedal, a race-worthy engine in my street 911, etc.). I know what I want, and I'm afraid Porsche doesn't build it anymore.
Edited to add: Black Prince, very well said.
Edited by Speedraser on Tuesday 5th March 06:28
....It is slower round the ring that the 2010 GT2 RS's. It is also slower than the 2009 onwards GT-R's and that is before the NISMO version is released, as well as the old Z06 & Vipers, etc.
Significantly more expensive than all of them. Only makes 50BHP more than the V8 Vantage and is pricier.
Looks no different than previous 911's, actually even worse because there are fewer distinguishing shapes.
What is the point of this again? Will litter the on road parking of Chelsea no doubt.
Significantly more expensive than all of them. Only makes 50BHP more than the V8 Vantage and is pricier.
Looks no different than previous 911's, actually even worse because there are fewer distinguishing shapes.
What is the point of this again? Will litter the on road parking of Chelsea no doubt.
Wheres the f
king handbrake? First thing I now look for in the interior of a car is an old frashioned handbrake.
After having a to use a car with an electronic handbrake for a day ...... there aint nooooo way I'm buying a car ever, without a good old fasioned handbrake. I don't give a flying fk how trick it is, if it ain't got one, I don't want one.
king handbrake? First thing I now look for in the interior of a car is an old frashioned handbrake.After having a to use a car with an electronic handbrake for a day ...... there aint nooooo way I'm buying a car ever, without a good old fasioned handbrake. I don't give a flying f
k how trick it is, if it ain't got one, I don't want one.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff