RE: Reasons to be cheerful: PH Blog
Discussion
F1 cars aren't designed to be involving: they're designed to go around a track fast, irrespective of how much 'fun' the driver is having.
The fastest car I've owned in all conditions was an impreza turbo. The BMW that replaced it was slower, but more fun. The 996 that has replaced that is arguably slower in many instances - certainly in my hands - but I feel like I'm materially involved in the way the car goes.
Read the Champ column in Evo, written by Dario Franchitti. (P47, issue 181).
The fastest car I've owned in all conditions was an impreza turbo. The BMW that replaced it was slower, but more fun. The 996 that has replaced that is arguably slower in many instances - certainly in my hands - but I feel like I'm materially involved in the way the car goes.
Read the Champ column in Evo, written by Dario Franchitti. (P47, issue 181).
Champ said:
Modern cars are getting faster, grippier and more stable. But I only want those characteristics in a race car. It seems to me that a trend is developing where road cars are being engineered to behave like race cars - but the truth is that driver enjoyment is way down the list of priorities for a race. If we go down that route it's a slippery slope for those who love road driving.
It'll take a brave car cmpany to say 'sod the Nurbrugring lap time, sod the 0-60mph and the top speed - let's focus on feel and connection'
Eloquently put, and I agree with him. It'll take a brave car cmpany to say 'sod the Nurbrugring lap time, sod the 0-60mph and the top speed - let's focus on feel and connection'
juansolo said:
To me the fact that the GT86 is selling proves that there still is a market there for people who want something involving to drive. Hopefully it goes on to be a success as otherwise, the future is looking bleak for us luddites.
The same GT86 that some on PH were w
king over saying 'thank god its a manual', 'yeah proof that a car doesn't need 500 bhp to be fun', 'I'm so happy that it is Naturally aspirated', but once videos and other stuff came out, quickly began to say 'it needs more power' 'hopefully a turbo version should be along soon'?I just lost the efficient new car and only have the silly old car now. Made some other life adjustments so I drive less than I used to but enjoy it more. Winner. 
Thing is, one or two city councils are set on banning cars past a certain age and as my home and underground parking are near a city centre I would like to continue enjoying my life in this way without having to resort to buying a second car that my heart isn't really in and renting (secure???) garage space out of town...
Thing is, one or two city councils are set on banning cars past a certain age and as my home and underground parking are near a city centre I would like to continue enjoying my life in this way without having to resort to buying a second car that my heart isn't really in and renting (secure???) garage space out of town...
(To the article not the responses I haven't yet read)
NO NO NO NO NNNOOO!! Grrr even Chris Harris who used to be a man who's opinions I could trust is starting to listen to the bumpf over flappy paddle gearboxes 'raving about the 8speed bmw unit'.
Driving a car with an automatic gearbox and traction control is like trying to seduce a woman through a translator compared to having sex. By the time you've explained your response to the translator the moment has passed.. if you can feel every movement your partner is making you don't even have to have a conversation to be in tune.
I finally got a chance to drive the new bmw 8-speed recently and it's no better than the DSG everyone was telling me was great (before they did a U-turn) near on 10 years ago! Seemed completely bewildered if you tried to make a gap on a roundabout, overtake when a car pulled in on a motorway do a quick lane change. Throttle response of old is completely irrelevant compared to the time it takes to decide on a gear when your foot goes down hard.
Automatics and translators have their uses and don't matter if you're not after an instantaneous reaction but if you are then no matter how good they are it's never going to work.
I can remember right at the peak of the recent GTR fanboyism getting a few laps in a gtr and then hoping straight into a 996 gt3. It was just the perfect demonstration of everything wrong with the gtr's/modern cars approach to performance cars. The gtr barely bothered relaying to the cockpit what was happening let alone listening to the drivers inputs. I image the next generation will no longer need a windscreen. The drivers inputs felt like they were considered as a fairly unimportant factor amongst the many inputs it was calculating to achieve its optimum output.
The gt3 felt totally direct and mechanical. Every input had the exact instinctual reaction you expected from the car. It was beautiful, natural cause and effect, the car listened and instantly reacted obediently to every tiny whisper asked of it and by the wealth of its abilities made the best of every input without ever having to interfere.
NO NO NO NO NNNOOO!! Grrr even Chris Harris who used to be a man who's opinions I could trust is starting to listen to the bumpf over flappy paddle gearboxes 'raving about the 8speed bmw unit'.
Driving a car with an automatic gearbox and traction control is like trying to seduce a woman through a translator compared to having sex. By the time you've explained your response to the translator the moment has passed.. if you can feel every movement your partner is making you don't even have to have a conversation to be in tune.
I finally got a chance to drive the new bmw 8-speed recently and it's no better than the DSG everyone was telling me was great (before they did a U-turn) near on 10 years ago! Seemed completely bewildered if you tried to make a gap on a roundabout, overtake when a car pulled in on a motorway do a quick lane change. Throttle response of old is completely irrelevant compared to the time it takes to decide on a gear when your foot goes down hard.
Automatics and translators have their uses and don't matter if you're not after an instantaneous reaction but if you are then no matter how good they are it's never going to work.
I can remember right at the peak of the recent GTR fanboyism getting a few laps in a gtr and then hoping straight into a 996 gt3. It was just the perfect demonstration of everything wrong with the gtr's/modern cars approach to performance cars. The gtr barely bothered relaying to the cockpit what was happening let alone listening to the drivers inputs. I image the next generation will no longer need a windscreen. The drivers inputs felt like they were considered as a fairly unimportant factor amongst the many inputs it was calculating to achieve its optimum output.
The gt3 felt totally direct and mechanical. Every input had the exact instinctual reaction you expected from the car. It was beautiful, natural cause and effect, the car listened and instantly reacted obediently to every tiny whisper asked of it and by the wealth of its abilities made the best of every input without ever having to interfere.
TheHeretic said:
Involvement does not equal enjoyment. An F1 driver may not be catered for enjoyment wise, but they are certainly involved. 
Indeed.Involvement=Objective
Enjoyment=Subjective
Both are not mutually exclusive and one may derive enjoyment from a PDK/DSG/Whatever, but they certainly have less involvement both from a sensory/tactile aspect of gearchange and from a pure physical exertion aspect, especially with the auto-rev matching in these boxes. Ergo, these technologies reduce driver involvement, but may or may not reduce driver enjoyment.
Assuming that Porsche knows its business (and I have no doubts that it does) it's obviously taking the most profitable course. I share the frustration of the enthusiasts but criticizing a business enterprise for trying to maximize their profit is to reject basic principle of capitalism. We just have to live with it.
I have a 996 GT2 that I will never be able to fully master in all conditions. There will always be a mutual respect between us and I'm so thankful for that!
I have a 996 GT2 that I will never be able to fully master in all conditions. There will always be a mutual respect between us and I'm so thankful for that!
Kawasicki said:
-1
why go to the bother of driving at all? Driverless cars are the future, 99.9% of people will just love them.
I fear that you are correct. This is exactly where we are heading, one electronic gadget at a time.why go to the bother of driving at all? Driverless cars are the future, 99.9% of people will just love them.
It amazes me that many supposed driving enthusiasts on here just don't see it.
In about 10 years it will click and then it will be far too late.....
Dr Z said:
Indeed.
Involvement=Objective
Enjoyment=Subjective
Both are not mutually exclusive and one may derive enjoyment from a PDK/DSG/Whatever, but they certainly have less involvement both from a sensory/tactile aspect of gearchange and from a pure physical exertion aspect, especially with the auto-rev matching in these boxes. Ergo, these technologies reduce driver involvement, but may or may not reduce driver enjoyment.
Indeed the level involvement increases the less driving aids you have - remove abs, traction control, powered steering and the driver experience increases. The enjoyment of anything though largely depends on my five senses feeding my brain to invoke an positive emotional response. Involvement=Objective
Enjoyment=Subjective
Both are not mutually exclusive and one may derive enjoyment from a PDK/DSG/Whatever, but they certainly have less involvement both from a sensory/tactile aspect of gearchange and from a pure physical exertion aspect, especially with the auto-rev matching in these boxes. Ergo, these technologies reduce driver involvement, but may or may not reduce driver enjoyment.
Manually changing gear or pulling a paddle only covers 'feeling' - I am after the driver experience any car offers, how it hits at least 4 of my senses and what positive emotions that (hopefully) causes.
Technology, driving aids, aero etc in a sportscar should try and add positively to the driving experience for it to be a success in IMHO.
If I believed the Luddites, i still should be driving my Morris Marina Coupe, since its manual, rwd, has no powered steering and no abs
. Instead I am very happy to enjoy driving an Ariel Atom and a Porsche Turbo PDK - both offer a very different driving experience, both are very enjoyable and both hit all five senses (if I lick their respective bonnets) 
Edited by tjlees on Wednesday 13th March 20:53
mollytherocker said:
I fear that you are correct. This is exactly where we are heading, one electronic gadget at a time.
It amazes me that many supposed driving enthusiasts on here just don't see it.
In about 10 years it will click and then it will be far too late.....
The sky is falling. It amazes me that many supposed driving enthusiasts on here just don't see it.
In about 10 years it will click and then it will be far too late.....
Dan, you're wrong.
As the first poster said, great cars should scare us, even if only a little bit. They should reward us when we're skilful and use them well, and frighten us if we mess it up. They should teach us we have limits and that we exceed them at our peril - a valuable life lesson, btw. Risk and reward are central to the human experience. Without feedback, both positive and negative, we don't learn, we don't become better (drivers or as a person), we just exist.
Manufacturers, oddly, don't share these feelings, as there is something called liability law and if they could sell a car that poses no risk to its occupants (who would no longer be drivers), they would sell it. Obviously with every incremental step we move a bit closer to that grim day. And we all get a bit closer to being like the sad mass of humanity in Huxley's short story "The Machine Stops".
Don't believe me - look at how awful air travel has become, compared with the glorious days from the dawn of flight until, roughly, the early 50s, when flying was exciting and adventurous and stirred people's souls, mainly because it was dangerous. Now it's safe and boring and tedious and generally awful, unless you're lucky enough to fly fast jets for a living. And how many of us do that? Not many.
So, yes, let's go and burn flappy paddles and storm the walls of Porsche and all the other manfacturers and tell them that safer is not always better, that speed that requires no skill and is delivered without feedback and without excitement is not worth having, and that this ceaseless march of technology needs to end now, before they remove the steering wheel from all cars.
Luddites of the world, unite. Your time is now.
As the first poster said, great cars should scare us, even if only a little bit. They should reward us when we're skilful and use them well, and frighten us if we mess it up. They should teach us we have limits and that we exceed them at our peril - a valuable life lesson, btw. Risk and reward are central to the human experience. Without feedback, both positive and negative, we don't learn, we don't become better (drivers or as a person), we just exist.
Manufacturers, oddly, don't share these feelings, as there is something called liability law and if they could sell a car that poses no risk to its occupants (who would no longer be drivers), they would sell it. Obviously with every incremental step we move a bit closer to that grim day. And we all get a bit closer to being like the sad mass of humanity in Huxley's short story "The Machine Stops".
Don't believe me - look at how awful air travel has become, compared with the glorious days from the dawn of flight until, roughly, the early 50s, when flying was exciting and adventurous and stirred people's souls, mainly because it was dangerous. Now it's safe and boring and tedious and generally awful, unless you're lucky enough to fly fast jets for a living. And how many of us do that? Not many.
So, yes, let's go and burn flappy paddles and storm the walls of Porsche and all the other manfacturers and tell them that safer is not always better, that speed that requires no skill and is delivered without feedback and without excitement is not worth having, and that this ceaseless march of technology needs to end now, before they remove the steering wheel from all cars.
Luddites of the world, unite. Your time is now.
ewenm said:
"Talk the talk" vs "walk the walk"
we have a winner! just reading some of these posts make me laugh, i wish we could see who these posters are behind some of these usernames. ive never been to a trackday and seen it overfull with hardcore low tech, high "driver involvement" cars. i want to know where these guys are finding public roads where they are able to test themelves and their old school manly sportcar to the point where they can laugh at the mere mortals who like the idea of a dual clutch gearbox or tc system that digs them out of a tight situation. is ginetta on the stock market? i might just have a check because surely their cars are gonna be flying off the shelf soon. It is no wonder the manufacturers are increasingly reluctant to put manuals in cars targeting the enthusiast: us lot couldn't even agree on which is better for us.
The comparison to F1 is apt really, when a team invents a piece of tech that has an obvious performance benefit, others are left behind if they don't copy that tech. And they all play by the regs, which ultimately determine what kind of tech is allowed on the cars.
The emissions regs in road cars are obviously analogous to this and I fear their ever increasing stringency will continue to push manufacturers towards cars that drive themselves.
The comparison to F1 is apt really, when a team invents a piece of tech that has an obvious performance benefit, others are left behind if they don't copy that tech. And they all play by the regs, which ultimately determine what kind of tech is allowed on the cars.
The emissions regs in road cars are obviously analogous to this and I fear their ever increasing stringency will continue to push manufacturers towards cars that drive themselves.
jayb289 said:
if there are so many hardcore drivers on ph, who dont even need traction control or fancy electronics why isnt lotus/ginetta/etc selling more cars?
Tried a lotus, just wasn't built well enough to use every day. Would try a ginetta if they had a dealer within 100 miles and it was reliable enough to use daily.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff