VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[DonkeyApple]

OldGermanHeaps said:

The american test is for NOx not CO2 like the european tests. Actually its inverse, tuning for lower NOx generally increases CO2 and particulate output and vice versa. The american test deliberately favours big thirsty low compression low output petrol engines that those fkwits love.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Saturday 19th September 12:09

To be fair, an emissions test that favours big lazy V8s or ones that favour fking awful diesels and pissing little turbo'd units that are all vastly over complicated and uneccasarily expensive?

Are you sure they're the fkwits?

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

To be fair, an emissions test that favours big lazy V8s or ones that favour fking awful diesels and pissing little turbo'd units that are all vastly over complicated and uneccasarily expensive?

Are you sure they're the fkwits?

Both tests are pretty stupid.

[EricE]

kambites said:

Both tests are pretty stupid.

I agree and can't get my head around the fact that they weren't changed yet.

These emission tests singlehandedly steer engine and car development or rather the whole industry but are completely broken with regards to real life consumption of small turbo engines, plugin hybrids, etc.

[ging84]

there may well be a lot more to come on this, VW are by no means the only ones at it, if they've been the first to co-operate with the US authorities, things could look fairly bad for the likes of BMW and Mercedes

[DonkeyApple]

kambites said:

DonkeyApple said:

To be fair, an emissions test that favours big lazy V8s or ones that favour fking awful diesels and pissing little turbo'd units that are all vastly over complicated and uneccasarily expensive?

Are you sure they're the fkwits?

Both tests are pretty stupid.

Indeed but to favour the one that benefits diesels over an old school petrol V8 is bonkers.

[DonkeyApple]

ging84 said:

there may well be a lot more to come on this, VW are by no means the only ones at it, if they've been the first to co-operate with the US authorities, things could look fairly bad for the likes of BMW and Mercedes

Generally, it's probably safer to assume that they have all been doing it rather than just VW alone. Employees move around and take skills and secrets with them. It's inconceivable, almost, to think VW are alone.

What I'm interested in is whether this transpires to be classic US protectionism where the lobbyists have chosen one of many 'industry wheezes' that hardly impacts local products but allows the fining of overseas entities.

We've had this since the credit crunch in the financial industry where the U.S. has sought any means to destroy UK exchanges and take the flow and to also attack non US banks to allow the US banks to be more competitive.

[swimd]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Piech tipped the EPA about this. Of course we would never find out.

He wanted Winterkorn gone and I doubt he will be able to stay after this.
Stock is down -16% already and this isn't a penny stock we're talking about, it's Germany's largest industrial enterprise.

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

Indeed but to favour the one that benefits diesels over an old school petrol V8 is bonkers.

That rather depends on what you think their purpose is, really.

[scherzkeks]

marmitemania said:

Oh and I'm not trolling either it's just my opnion and I await someone to give me a reasonble defence of VAG and why we should buy there cars over all others.

Gott schütze uns vor Sturm und Wind, und Autos die aus England sind.

[TWPC]

swimd said:

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Piech tipped the EPA about this. Of course we would never find out.

He wanted Winterkorn gone and I doubt he will be able to stay after this.
Stock is down -16% already and this isn't a penny stock we're talking about, it's Germany's largest industrial enterprise.

Down 22% now.
Good point about Piech.

DonkeyApple said:

Generally, it's probably safer to assume that they have all been doing it rather than just VW alone. Employees move around and take skills and secrets with them. It's inconceivable, almost, to think VW are alone.

What I'm interested in is whether this transpires to be classic US protectionism where the lobbyists have chosen one of many 'industry wheezes' that hardly impacts local products but allows the fining of overseas entities.

We've had this since the credit crunch in the financial industry where the U.S. has sought any means to destroy UK exchanges and take the flow and to also attack non US banks to allow the US banks to be more competitive.

Regarding the point that employees move from company to company so others must be involved too: the problem for VW surely is that they are much more heavily invested in the success of diesel in the US than other companies.

80%+ of the cars BMW sells in Europe are diesel but in the US it's an insignificant proportion. VW and Merc are the ones to have made a big push in diesel in the US.

Bottom line - more trouble for diesel. Toyota must be happy today.

Edited by TWPC on Monday 21st September 10:29

[Mr GrimNasty]

ging84 said:

there may well be a lot more to come on this, VW are by no means the only ones at it

Quoted emissions/MPGs etc. have been laughable for years, you get 250bhp cars with nearly no emissions and 55mpg - yer sure!

That's the problem, when you get governments interfering, people/companies just play the system.

The other big con is quoting electric/hybrid mpgs assuming full battery charge and not adding an equivalent component for the electricity used.

[Vaud]

DonkeyApple said:

Generally, it's probably safer to assume that they have all been doing it rather than just VW alone. Employees move around and take skills and secrets with them. It's inconceivable, almost, to think VW are alone.

What I'm interested in is whether this transpires to be classic US protectionism where the lobbyists have chosen one of many 'industry wheezes' that hardly impacts local products but allows the fining of overseas entities.

I agree with both points - but the latter I think is tricky - so many vehicles are built in the US (BMW, etc) that it is not just punishing the overseas company, it hurts local jobs as well.

Maybe there is a case to force emission software to be open source - for the greater benefit of transparency and trust?

[keegs111]

EricE said:

source:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/1...

Those maximum fines seem rather extreme. VW is already struggling on the US market and this surely won't help them.
I would be surprised to learn that VW is the only company using such "tricks" to manipulate emission tests - US, EU or elsewhere...

Edit: Full PDF here: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa...

Edited by EricE on Friday 18th September 21:19

No more extreme than the ridiculous fines given to the banks!

[hornetrider]

VW apologises for breaking trust of their customers and the public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819

Shares down 18%! Ouch.

Also looks like a class action lawsuit is being launched. Double ouch!

[andy_s]

Is this an example of how Formula 1 skills can be applied to road cars...

[AnotherClarkey]

swimd said:

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Piech tipped the EPA about this. Of course we would never find out.

He wanted Winterkorn gone and I doubt he will be able to stay after this.
Stock is down -16% already and this isn't a penny stock we're talking about, it's Germany's largest industrial enterprise.

If Piech actually knew about this then the scandal is even bigger since it would mean that the criminal deception was sanctioned at the highest level and removes the 'it was an underling 'defence''. Piech would have implicated himself.

[Greshamst]

If they do get hit with the $18bn fine, (which to put into perspective is the same as BP had to pay for Deepwater Horizon oil spill), what is likely to happen to the company? Would they end up selling off seperate divisions? I can't see it being likely that they could survive a fine that large?

• EDIT* Scrap that, just seen that 2014 profits were $10bn, and assets of $350bn, so the fine is 5% of assets. That's not too bad then.

Edited by Greshamst on Monday 21st September 11:24

[QuantumTokoloshi]

I only wish they had similar "optimisations" available for MOT tests.

The new VW slogan should be, das auto, das uber dodgy.

[pardonmyenglish]

It's not the first time I hear about engines detecting that a emission test is being run and changing setting to alter results.
There's was a serious tv french reportage about car and pollution and it was mentioned.
The conclusion was that the official test results are a joke.

[EricE]

South Korea has also announced new emission tests of VW cars... EU is still quiet on this?

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2015/09/21/02...