RE: Has turbocharging ruined the 911
Discussion
SuperchargedVR6 said:
MaxA said:
Turbos are part of the automotive landscape nowadays: this is not because of Porsche or VAG, it's because of regulation. The question is, can Porsche or anyone else, do a good turbo engine? And it seems to me, that they can. Motoring Life - as we know it - is not over yet.
Turbos are only controversial now because the few remaining NA champions are going that way. It wasn't so long ago that a turbo defined the car - Escort RS Turbo, Sierra Cosworth, Renault 5 GT Turbo, Uno Turbo, early 911 turbos et al. And now some folk feel it ruins a car. NA is all about building up to it. As said by a previous poster, people don't want to wait for their power anymore. We live in an instant gratification society now.
What defines a 'good' turbo engine? Modern turbo engines are often criticised for being so linear they don't even feel turboed, which takes us back to the good old days of laggy hot hatches. What do people actually want? There's probably still some development mileage left in compound turbocharging if people want more top end.
And then there's the 3.8 in my 997.2: it sounds like a bag of nails, it chuffs, chunters, rocks and wails, and then strangely it is really quiet when warm and just pootling about, but by God it makes a great noise at high revs, certainly much nicer than my friends's 997.1 Turbo...
It all comes down to this, we all now exist in an era of downsizing/turbocharging and all the big sports manufacturers (Porsche, AMG, M-Sport etc) are trying to incorporate this into their products whilst not diluting the driving experience, some more successfully than others it must be said. The car industry is having to adapt to a changing environment and in the next 5-10 years, we will no doubt be having a discussion about the mainstream move away from combustion engines to electrified/hydrogen units.
People will still buy the 911 no matter what is in the back, because of what it represents to them. Others who hark back to the glory days or NA free revving engines will just buy a pre-2016 Porsche going forward. You pays you money, you make your choice.
Regards,
MyCC.
People will still buy the 911 no matter what is in the back, because of what it represents to them. Others who hark back to the glory days or NA free revving engines will just buy a pre-2016 Porsche going forward. You pays you money, you make your choice.
Regards,
MyCC.
yonex said:
Anyway, no, turbocharging hasn't ruined the 911.
I agree it hasn't...and even now they have turbocharged their base model they still manage to pull the punters pants down...seriously 365bhp/332ib ft for £76k...Porsche must laugh their heads off at every sale. Appreciate they do actually offer other 911's with some performance but as shown with their base model you will have to pay for it.
You are utterly mental if you think that 365bhp in a 911 is not a lot of performance. You must drive in a different country, because I drive a 997 S and find it borderline too fast for our roads. I think you drive with your mouth in the pub, to be honest, Lee. There is not a chance in hell that you could drive this new 911 and think it was slow. Not a chance.
cerb4.5lee said:
I agree it hasn't...and even now they have turbocharged their base model they still manage to pull the punters pants down...seriously 365bhp/332ib ft for £76k...Porsche must laugh their heads off at every sale.
Appreciate they do actually offer other 911's with some performance but as shown with their base model you will have to pay for it.
so for this car at least it's nothing to do with "top trumps"? That's left for the h hatch market? Appreciate they do actually offer other 911's with some performance but as shown with their base model you will have to pay for it.
ORD said:
You are utterly mental if you think that 365bhp in a 911 is not a lot of performance. You must drive in a different country, because I drive a 997 S and find it borderline too fast for our roads. I think you drive with your mouth in the pub, to be honest, Lee. There is not a chance in hell that you could drive this new 911 and think it was slow. Not a chance.
MaxA said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
MaxA said:
Turbos are part of the automotive landscape nowadays: this is not because of Porsche or VAG, it's because of regulation. The question is, can Porsche or anyone else, do a good turbo engine? And it seems to me, that they can. Motoring Life - as we know it - is not over yet.
Turbos are only controversial now because the few remaining NA champions are going that way. It wasn't so long ago that a turbo defined the car - Escort RS Turbo, Sierra Cosworth, Renault 5 GT Turbo, Uno Turbo, early 911 turbos et al. And now some folk feel it ruins a car. NA is all about building up to it. As said by a previous poster, people don't want to wait for their power anymore. We live in an instant gratification society now.
What defines a 'good' turbo engine? Modern turbo engines are often criticised for being so linear they don't even feel turboed, which takes us back to the good old days of laggy hot hatches. What do people actually want? There's probably still some development mileage left in compound turbocharging if people want more top end.
And then there's the 3.8 in my 997.2: it sounds like a bag of nails, it chuffs, chunters, rocks and wails, and then strangely it is really quiet when warm and just pootling about, but by God it makes a great noise at high revs, certainly much nicer than my friends's 997.1 Turbo...
I guess electric cars will feel very responsive low down and then flatten off? It's the future! cerb4.5lee said:
I didn't say it was slow but for me it doesn't offer much performance per pound.
No, but what Porsche have consistently offered is job security for employees, which is something possibly no British car company has ever offered unless the business is in foreign hands.The British way is to consistently lurch from one financial crisis to another, giving instability and insecurity to all - employees, owners, shareholders. I wholeheartedly applaud a business that doesn't do that, I can see that it must seem strange to us.
The only people who buy a Porsche are those who want one - it must be a win-win situation all round, surely?
heebeegeetee said:
No, but what Porsche have consistently offered is job security for employees, which is something possibly no British car company has ever offered unless the business is in foreign hands.
The British way is to consistently lurch from one financial crisis to another, giving instability and insecurity to all - employees, owners, shareholders. I wholeheartedly applaud a business that doesn't do that, I can see that it must seem strange to us.
The only people who buy a Porsche are those who want one - it must be a win-win situation all round, surely?
Which is ironic as British brands are some of the most lucrative to market. And let's not forget the British publics obseasion with bashing home market products. The British way is to consistently lurch from one financial crisis to another, giving instability and insecurity to all - employees, owners, shareholders. I wholeheartedly applaud a business that doesn't do that, I can see that it must seem strange to us.
The only people who buy a Porsche are those who want one - it must be a win-win situation all round, surely?
heebeegeetee said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I didn't say it was slow but for me it doesn't offer much performance per pound.
No, but what Porsche have consistently offered is job security for employees, which is something possibly no British car company has ever offered unless the business is in foreign hands.The British way is to consistently lurch from one financial crisis to another, giving instability and insecurity to all - employees, owners, shareholders. I wholeheartedly applaud a business that doesn't do that, I can see that it must seem strange to us.
The only people who buy a Porsche are those who want one - it must be a win-win situation all round, surely?
The M4 is a fair chunk cheaper too and offers very strong performance/power/torque, what I was getting at is that with a Porsche you pay for the badge and nothing wrong with that but you have to accept that you don't get much performance per pound when compared to other manufacturers and that is what I meant.
As you say though Porsche are laughing because punters are willing to pay it and that keeps them running a successful business so you cant blame them for charging a lot for not a lot.
yonex said:
Porsche have always delivered great handling cars, I am not entirely sure that you can measure it against something like a GTR which is far less involving and will likely cost a good deal more to run daily, weaker residuals etc.
Porsche were obsessed with trying to compete with the GTR though hence why they kept tweaking their Turbo and Turbo S models so for me its a fair enough comparison, then just look at what they charge for a Turbo or Turbo S which only offers similar performance to the GTR.A Porsche 911 is expensive for what it is, in saying that I don't dislike it and I do respect it as an icon but it doesn't offer much if anything other than its badge over alternatives for the price you pay for them for me.
cerb4.5lee said:
I am not sure what this has to do with anything, when EVO magazine tested the base 911 against the M4/GTR/F Type for pretty much the same money you can have a GTR which is almost 2 seconds quicker to 60 and has miles more performance in terms of stats and power/torque.
The M4 is a fair chunk cheaper too and offers very strong performance/power/torque, what I was getting at is that with a Porsche you pay for the badge and nothing wrong with that but you have to accept that you don't get much performance per pound when compared to other manufacturers and that is what I meant.
As you say though Porsche are laughing because punters are willing to pay it and that keeps them running a successful business so you cant blame them for charging a lot for not a lot.
Fast saloons have been giving sports cars the runaround for decades, there's nowt new there, and of course they're cheaper to make. Other sports cars have always been available, they've come and gone too over the decades (including their manufacturers in some cases).The M4 is a fair chunk cheaper too and offers very strong performance/power/torque, what I was getting at is that with a Porsche you pay for the badge and nothing wrong with that but you have to accept that you don't get much performance per pound when compared to other manufacturers and that is what I meant.
As you say though Porsche are laughing because punters are willing to pay it and that keeps them running a successful business so you cant blame them for charging a lot for not a lot.
I don't think people buying 911s are stupid, and I don't think they're chasing top trumps either - there's so much more to a fine car than that.
There will always be people who appreciate the many things the 911 offers over its rivals - I recall when the Aston Vantage came out all the magazines basically said "might as well get a 911", but that didn't stop the baby Aston doing very well. I would wager the vast majority of people who buy a 911 probably never even considered a GT-R. Maybe those that did were put off by the relatively low-rent interior, because how many of the people who buy these cars REALLY use all the performance they have to offer? Not many I would guess.
My experience of turbo'd 911s is very limited, but I am sure turbocharging will CHANGE the 911. Will it RUIN it? I doubt it. The 911 has been threatened with being killed off more than once and has adapted to the times. The great thing about cars is it's not like all the old ones suddenly get destroyed the moment the new one goes on sale, so there will be plenty of NA 911s available for years to come. Porsche held off as long as they could - when was the last time you could buy a Ferrari with a manual box, for example? At the end of the day they have a business to run and they're subject to many influencing factors.
As far as I see it Porsche has been slowly pushing the 911 up into the luxury/GT category, and slowly allowing the Cayman to be more of a focused sports car - evidenced by the GT4. A shame it was a limited run model. This seems to be a recurring trend - the BMW 3 series has become more luxury, leaving a vacuum which was then filled by the 1 series/MINI, for example.
My experience of turbo'd 911s is very limited, but I am sure turbocharging will CHANGE the 911. Will it RUIN it? I doubt it. The 911 has been threatened with being killed off more than once and has adapted to the times. The great thing about cars is it's not like all the old ones suddenly get destroyed the moment the new one goes on sale, so there will be plenty of NA 911s available for years to come. Porsche held off as long as they could - when was the last time you could buy a Ferrari with a manual box, for example? At the end of the day they have a business to run and they're subject to many influencing factors.
As far as I see it Porsche has been slowly pushing the 911 up into the luxury/GT category, and slowly allowing the Cayman to be more of a focused sports car - evidenced by the GT4. A shame it was a limited run model. This seems to be a recurring trend - the BMW 3 series has become more luxury, leaving a vacuum which was then filled by the 1 series/MINI, for example.
Good post. Porsche AG don't make second hand cars so they don't give a damn about those who moan about new cars not being to their very exacting standards despite their ability to drive/assess a car being questionable, at best. Those guys were never in the market for new cars anyway, hence their bias.
nickfrog said:
Good post. Porsche AG don't make second hand cars so they don't give a damn about those who moan about new cars not being to their very exacting standards despite their ability to drive/assess a car being questionable, at best. Those guys were never in the market for new cars anyway, hence their bias.
Yup, it is very easy to forget that being English and petrol heads puts us in a real minority. And there are even fewer still of us with the buying power to get these things new. We should be thankful things like the Cayman, or 911 GT3 exist at all - and never forget they only exist because all those "idiots" bought Cayennes, enough to keep Porsche afloat.Same with BMW - the 320d is a more important model to the company than the M3 I am sure. As for stuff like the X6, it's vile but it sells. And if it sells enough to allow the company to indulge in less profit making but more exciting stuff, so be it.
I feel very lucky to have owned a 911 996, I could only afford it because their reputation has knackered the values. Now, if everyone can start moaning about Gallardos and how rubbish they are please
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