Investment Cars
Discussion
If you could ever find a really good example of any of the following it could prove to be a good buy: Sierra Sapphire Cosworth, 8v Integrale, 16v Integrale, Mitsubishi Evo 1-6 TME, Celica GT4, any Lotus Esprit (although it has been playing catch up quite dramatically lately), Alfa 147 & 156 GTA, Sunny/Pulsar GTiR, Corvette C6 ZO6, original ZR1, 5.8L Mustang GT500.
All are still looking good value to me. Celica GT4 in particular is looking like a total bargain compared to the other WRC winning cars. Most have shown varying degrees of modest appreciation recently but have largely missed out on the rampant increase in values associated with many other cars. The bubble has already softened higher up but the cars mentioned above have not been affected and continue to rise. When a glassfibre 308 is pushing £200k an early Lotus Esprit is still looking very good value at £30k and, I believe, still below where it really should be for an iconic Italian styled car that handles properly (unlike most of its contempories), has a body that can't rust, has been raced successfully and has enjoyed a starring role in 2 Bond films.
All are still looking good value to me. Celica GT4 in particular is looking like a total bargain compared to the other WRC winning cars. Most have shown varying degrees of modest appreciation recently but have largely missed out on the rampant increase in values associated with many other cars. The bubble has already softened higher up but the cars mentioned above have not been affected and continue to rise. When a glassfibre 308 is pushing £200k an early Lotus Esprit is still looking very good value at £30k and, I believe, still below where it really should be for an iconic Italian styled car that handles properly (unlike most of its contempories), has a body that can't rust, has been raced successfully and has enjoyed a starring role in 2 Bond films.
I would only ever get into the investment game as a side effect of a car I already wanted to buy. I will look at things and if I think it's not going to depreciate much, or might increase in value, then that just goes in the plusses column when comparing it to another car that might lose money.
That said, and bearing in mind that I'm looking mainly at the shallow end of the pool, these are the things on my radar currently.
Toyota Celica GT-FOUR ST205 - Criminally undervalued, starting to rise, and getting rarer by the year.
VW Scirocco/Corrado - Wide spread on prices currently in the market. Cheap ones are less than a grand, but some dealers are trying to sell for five figures!
Audi Cabriolet - I have part interest in one of these bought a couple of years back for £900. It's slowly appreciating.
I've been pretty lucky in the last few years with depreciation and have cycled through a number of cars losing very minimal amounts:
Blobeye WRX estate
Lotus Exige S
E46 M3
Z4M Convertible
Forester STI
None of them have appreciated, but they have done pretty well holding value.
That said, and bearing in mind that I'm looking mainly at the shallow end of the pool, these are the things on my radar currently.
Toyota Celica GT-FOUR ST205 - Criminally undervalued, starting to rise, and getting rarer by the year.
VW Scirocco/Corrado - Wide spread on prices currently in the market. Cheap ones are less than a grand, but some dealers are trying to sell for five figures!
Audi Cabriolet - I have part interest in one of these bought a couple of years back for £900. It's slowly appreciating.
I've been pretty lucky in the last few years with depreciation and have cycled through a number of cars losing very minimal amounts:
Blobeye WRX estate
Lotus Exige S
E46 M3
Z4M Convertible
Forester STI
None of them have appreciated, but they have done pretty well holding value.
This is such an interesting subject, my dad and I started buying cars with the philosophy of if they didn't loose us any money and were cool to own and drive then they were worth a punt. Turns out we were actually quite good at it as every car we've bought has actually made money come resale time. Having the luxury of disposable income was obviously a huge bonus, but having an obsession with cars and a broad knowledge also helped. There are some pretty basic rules which we stuck to that have served us well, these are: Desirabilty, rarity, provenance, condition, and more often than not very low mileage. This is not a hard and fast formula, more a basis on which we formulate our buying decisions. It's a bit like playing the stock market, it's a calculated risk. So far we've had a Renault Sport Spider, Lotus Exige S1, BMW Z3 M Coupé, Renault Clio V6 Phase 2, Aston Martin Vanquish S, Porsche 911 '89 Speedster, Porsche 996 GT3 Gen 2, and some pretty serious stuff which I accept is a little on the pricey side, but none the less has mad significant gains in value. These include Porsche 997 GT2 RS, Porsche GT3 RS 4.0, and Ferrari 458 Specialé. This brings me onto another point: end date of an era stuff really helps values, for example, the 4.0l because it was the last Mezger, hydraulic steering, manual etc, 458 Specialé because the new cars are turbo....all these things make the older cars potentially more desirable. I understand that these cars are unattainable for a lot of people, but there are still great cars to be had at reasonable money. I've just bought an Aston Martin DB7 and surely these cant stay under £30k for long, I've also just bought an E36 M3 as I always wanted one when I was younger. If you've got a bit more cash a DBS manual would be a good shout, as would a clean 996 911. Just make sure you drive it!
Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Coupe 507 Edition – marks the end of the 6.2L V8 era...
Renault Clio Trophy – again, the end of an era, of sorts...
Honda S2000 (2004-on) – facelifted car universally recognised as the one to have...
Ferrari F355 – the best sounding Ferrari for me, and still relatively cheap
Oh and what about the Audi A2 – way ahead of its time technically...
Renault Clio Trophy – again, the end of an era, of sorts...
Honda S2000 (2004-on) – facelifted car universally recognised as the one to have...
Ferrari F355 – the best sounding Ferrari for me, and still relatively cheap
Oh and what about the Audi A2 – way ahead of its time technically...
Edited by isosonic on Monday 16th May 16:54
It's a fairly simple formula really, given the way cars are going.
Smaller engined, auto cars are the future, so anything manual with a big engine, that looks fabulous.
Aston DB7s will be out of reach soon, so the next best thing is a Jaguar XK- - but manuals in both hard to find.
Small production numbers always help. Alfa SZ anyone?
Smaller engined, auto cars are the future, so anything manual with a big engine, that looks fabulous.
Aston DB7s will be out of reach soon, so the next best thing is a Jaguar XK- - but manuals in both hard to find.
Small production numbers always help. Alfa SZ anyone?
CupMeister said:
This brings me onto another point: end date of an era stuff really helps values, for example, the 4.0l because it was the last Mezger, hydraulic steering, manual etc,
Very interesting - and also what I believe. Therefore the 911R is a future profit. Probably 40% up as soon as it leaves the showroom. Just wish I had the money. BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
I think anyone who is thinking about investing in cars at this stage in the market is asking for trouble.
I sold my Ferrari 328 GTS about 10 years ago for £30k, and it is now probably worth £90k ( it had a few more miles than the usual 100 on it ... ). So in theory, that makes me look like a fool.
BUT when you factor in about £4k a year to garage ( in London ), insure , tax and generally maintain, plus probably another £1k a year if you had to borrow the money to purchase, and we're talking about £5k a year, or £50k over the 10 years. And that is before anything BIG goes wrong ( and big things will go expensively wrong at some stage in the 10 years of owning a 30 year old car with a prancing horse on it ).
So, even with my absolutely lousy timing, I may or may not have broken even. But the point is, this was during the period of THE ABSOLUTE best increases in prices that we have probably ever seen for "classic" cars ( with maybe the exception of the bubble in the 80's, and those with long memories will know where that ended ). Such rises are very unlikely to happen again. The market has already risen to the level where the people buying now are "investors", looking to flip cars on to even bigger fools then themselves. "Collectors", or those who simply like cars, are either priced out or already have something.
This is now a bubble and it can only end one way......
I actually agree with this, so I want to play devil's advocate to ensure I'm not kidding myself...I sold my Ferrari 328 GTS about 10 years ago for £30k, and it is now probably worth £90k ( it had a few more miles than the usual 100 on it ... ). So in theory, that makes me look like a fool.
BUT when you factor in about £4k a year to garage ( in London ), insure , tax and generally maintain, plus probably another £1k a year if you had to borrow the money to purchase, and we're talking about £5k a year, or £50k over the 10 years. And that is before anything BIG goes wrong ( and big things will go expensively wrong at some stage in the 10 years of owning a 30 year old car with a prancing horse on it ).
So, even with my absolutely lousy timing, I may or may not have broken even. But the point is, this was during the period of THE ABSOLUTE best increases in prices that we have probably ever seen for "classic" cars ( with maybe the exception of the bubble in the 80's, and those with long memories will know where that ended ). Such rises are very unlikely to happen again. The market has already risen to the level where the people buying now are "investors", looking to flip cars on to even bigger fools then themselves. "Collectors", or those who simply like cars, are either priced out or already have something.
This is now a bubble and it can only end one way......
1) There's now a global demand for classic cars. Previously it was pretty much UK, US, Germany. China is starting to wake up to the market...and God help us all when their colossal middle class decides en masse that they want a thing. That thing will be priced out of all of our reaches. Remember what happened to the price of good Clarets a few years ago?
2) Most new cars are vague and unsatisfying to drive. There's very little out there that's light, direct, aggressive, and fun. There's no alternative if you want something involving but to buy used. Safety and environmental legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid.
3) There's naff all else to invest in while rates are low and property, art, and equities are valued so highly that expected returns are through the floor. There's no opportunity cost to owning a car instead of a more traditional store of wealth.
4) The 'baby boomer' generation (globally) now wants the cars they loved in their youth, and can afford them. There are many more of them than surviving cars from their era...
Potentially offsetting this in the longer term:
1) rates will rise again eventually, and monetary policy will reel in some of this excess liquidity that's sloshing around.
2) eventually there's no incremental buyer - the last of the suckers has bought. I feel like Porsche is getting there, as I can't find A SINGLE PERSON who doesn't believe that Porsche values only ever go up. Literally nobody I speak to (who likes cars) thinks they're anything other than the best car and investment ever OMG I LUV THEM!!!11!!! In the investing world this is a HUGE red flag.
3) My generation (under 30s) doesn't really 'get' cars. When the boomers sell theirs, I can see Gen X stepping up, but then when they come to sell/bequeath their cars, I don't see many of my peers caring at all. That's when they could get seriously cheap.
4) Legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid...how long will the tax breaks and favourable terms for the most polluting cars last in Europe and the US? Especially as the 'common man' associates classic cars with the wealthy.
Any thoughts? I'd love to have a proper discussion on this, assuming we can avoid it degenerating into accusations of Nazism. Which is clearly a big assumption.
Edited by breezer42 on Monday 16th May 17:11
Esceptico said:
A pox on all you a
holes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.
Nothing gets my goat more than that phrase. holes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money."Enthusiast"
I'd be really f**king enthusiastic about a 250GTO and drive it daily, but I know i'll never own one. Good, interesting cars are worth money; no amount of enthusiasm is going to get you special discount.
Having said this, they should still be used... But if bought new and put straight into storage, I'd wager they were way beyond any of our means from day one anyway.
I own two 'appreciating classics' - both are used hard and both get people complaining about 'real enthusiasts' being priced out of the market for them - neither is worth more than a few-year-old 3 series. I bought them 'cos I like them, the fact they're worth more now than when they arrived is a bonus but by no means the thing I get hung up on. If you like a car, buy it if you can. If it's too pricey, it's too pricey...
Edited by mattpurdon on Monday 16th May 17:29
Edited by mattpurdon on Monday 16th May 17:30
breezer42 said:
I actually agree with this, so I want to play devil's advocate to ensure I'm not kidding myself...
1) There's now a global demand for classic cars. Previously it was pretty much UK, US, Germany. China is starting to wake up to the market...and God help us all when their colossal middle class decides en masse that they want a thing. That thing will be priced out of all of our reaches. Remember what happened to the price of good Clarets a few years ago?
2) Most new cars are vague and unsatisfying to drive. There's very little out there that's light, direct, aggressive, and fun. There's no alternative if you want something involving but to buy used. Safety and environmental legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid.
3) There's naff all else to invest in while rates are low and property, art, and equities are valued so highly that expected returns are through the floor. There's no opportunity cost to owning a car instead of a more traditional store of wealth.
4) The 'baby boomer' generation (globally) now wants the cars they loved in their youth, and can afford them. There are many more of them than surviving cars from their era...
Potentially offsetting this in the longer term:
1) rates will rise again eventually, and monetary policy will reel in some of this excess liquidity that's sloshing around.
2) eventually there's no incremental buyer - the last of the suckers has bought. I feel like Porsche is getting there, as I can't find A SINGLE PERSON who doesn't believe that Porsche values only ever go up. Literally nobody I speak to (who likes cars) thinks they're anything other than the best car and investment ever OMG I LUV THEM!!!11!!! In the investing world this is a HUGE red flag.
3) My generation (under 30s) doesn't really 'get' cars. When the boomers sell theirs, I can see Gen X stepping up, but then when they come to sell/bequeath their cars, I don't see many of my peers caring at all. That's when they could get seriously cheap.
4) Legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid...how long will the tax breaks and favourable terms for the most polluting cars last in Europe and the US? Especially as the 'common man' associates classic cars with the wealthy.
Any thoughts? I'd love to have a proper discussion on this, assuming we can avoid it degenerating into accusations of Nazism. Which is clearly a big assumption.
The problem is that when people start saying that prices are likely to stagnate or even drop, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People see the predictions and decide not to buy, there are fewer buyers in the market and supply and demand sees prices drop.1) There's now a global demand for classic cars. Previously it was pretty much UK, US, Germany. China is starting to wake up to the market...and God help us all when their colossal middle class decides en masse that they want a thing. That thing will be priced out of all of our reaches. Remember what happened to the price of good Clarets a few years ago?
2) Most new cars are vague and unsatisfying to drive. There's very little out there that's light, direct, aggressive, and fun. There's no alternative if you want something involving but to buy used. Safety and environmental legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid.
3) There's naff all else to invest in while rates are low and property, art, and equities are valued so highly that expected returns are through the floor. There's no opportunity cost to owning a car instead of a more traditional store of wealth.
4) The 'baby boomer' generation (globally) now wants the cars they loved in their youth, and can afford them. There are many more of them than surviving cars from their era...
Potentially offsetting this in the longer term:
1) rates will rise again eventually, and monetary policy will reel in some of this excess liquidity that's sloshing around.
2) eventually there's no incremental buyer - the last of the suckers has bought. I feel like Porsche is getting there, as I can't find A SINGLE PERSON who doesn't believe that Porsche values only ever go up. Literally nobody I speak to (who likes cars) thinks they're anything other than the best car and investment ever OMG I LUV THEM!!!11!!! In the investing world this is a HUGE red flag.
3) My generation (under 30s) doesn't really 'get' cars. When the boomers sell theirs, I can see Gen X stepping up, but then when they come to sell/bequeath their cars, I don't see many of my peers caring at all. That's when they could get seriously cheap.
4) Legislation is only going to go one way I'm afraid...how long will the tax breaks and favourable terms for the most polluting cars last in Europe and the US? Especially as the 'common man' associates classic cars with the wealthy.
Any thoughts? I'd love to have a proper discussion on this, assuming we can avoid it degenerating into accusations of Nazism. Which is clearly a big assumption.
Edited by breezer42 on Monday 16th May 17:11
Four things to consider:
1. Interest rates are low, and there are few investments giving a decent return, so why not spend your money on a classic and enjoy it (that's what I did and its much more fun than a bond (even a bug?!)). If interest rates do go up, things might change, but are low interest rates the 'new normal'?
2. There is no capital gains tax on cars.
3. If prices drop, there is more scope for those who wish to drive their cars, rather than store them away, to get one.
4. If the price drops (and like me you are not intending to sell anyway) the cost of insurance goes down.
There is good news a bad news with prices.
"My generation (under 30s) doesn't really 'get' cars".
I am sure there are many on here who do - am I wrong?
All plausible points but not really getting the Nazism thing, is this a reference to Porsche's history?
Either way I certainly don't believe Porsches will continue to rise nor that they are the greatest thing ever. Surely there are examples already of the Porsche bubble softening? Remember £220k 964 RS's? They are considerably cheaper than that already. There are many tales of 911s being hard to shift out there among the dealers. All of them are overpriced and I think everyone knows it.
Either way I certainly don't believe Porsches will continue to rise nor that they are the greatest thing ever. Surely there are examples already of the Porsche bubble softening? Remember £220k 964 RS's? They are considerably cheaper than that already. There are many tales of 911s being hard to shift out there among the dealers. All of them are overpriced and I think everyone knows it.
Once you get into serious territory I would expect people to start getting very picky about service history.
I spend pretty much all my 'profit' on my tvrs keeping the annual service history up to date. Yet a friend of mine is quite happy to skip a year if he hasn't used his much more valuable Ferrari much.
I don't know who's the idiot.
I spend pretty much all my 'profit' on my tvrs keeping the annual service history up to date. Yet a friend of mine is quite happy to skip a year if he hasn't used his much more valuable Ferrari much.
I don't know who's the idiot.
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