Rumours of Zenos into administration..
Discussion
Apart from someone specifically looking for something obscure, I just can see what a Zenos offers over an Elise. Every thing I have ever read about it mentions the Elise.
Caterhams, Ginettas and even X-Bows all offer a different proposition, so personal preference aside all have a niche.
I've not driven a Zenos, so could be wrong, in which case the marketing has completely failed and you get back to the same point.
Caterhams, Ginettas and even X-Bows all offer a different proposition, so personal preference aside all have a niche.
I've not driven a Zenos, so could be wrong, in which case the marketing has completely failed and you get back to the same point.
PunterCam said:
That's a wee shame, but not unexpected..
but I think companies like Caterham and Zenos will struggle more and more.
You can't compare them, sure they operate in the same sector but they are widely different as businesses and brands. Caterhams have been are known, sold and raced successfully around the world for decades and are as distinctive as a 911, Beetle, Mini etc. They are way past the point Zenos got to.but I think companies like Caterham and Zenos will struggle more and more.
charltjr said:
they targeted a niche which wasn't very well filled.
And it wasn't very well filled for very good reasons:1) For the UK market, weather gear IS important. It rains, it's cold, you need a decent roof, doors and HVAC / demister if you really want to use the car on more than the odd sunny sunday
2) Not that many people will want to drop £30k+ on a toy car for those few sunny sundays
3) The sort of person that might have £30k+ to drop on a sunny sunday car will have other things to spend it on. Be that second hand sports cars from the tier above (s/h 911 etc), or from the tier below (s/h caterham etc)
4) The middle ground, a car which is trying to not be too extreme, but is more extreme than say an MX5, isn't actually a very good proposition. It's not crazy enough to sit on it's own (see Mono/Ariel) but it's too compromised to be an everyday car, which leads back to point 1), which is where we came in.
I take your point, and it's well made, but it did have basic weather protection (albeit just a "get you home" hood) and was selling well enough for there to be a waiting list and strong residuals on used cars, so I'm not sure the niche was as unpopular as you'd think. Certainly I was seriously looking at one, it ticked a hell of a lot of boxes for me, I just don't have the money at the moment.
The E11 was going to cover a lot of those bases to expand the brand out of that niche.
The E11 was going to cover a lot of those bases to expand the brand out of that niche.
charltjr said:
I take your point, and it's well made, but it did have basic weather protection (albeit just a "get you home" hood) and was selling well enough for there to be a waiting list and strong residuals on used cars, so I'm not sure the niche was as unpopular as you'd think. Certainly I was seriously looking at one, it ticked a hell of a lot of boxes for me, I just don't have the money at the moment.
The E11 was going to cover a lot of those bases to expand the brand out of that niche.
I think my problem with the car was, while it looked fantastic, it still didn't have the practicality of the Caterham. With my 7 I've got a hood good enough for the worst rain, a boot big enough for a weekend away (with options of a boot bag - we did 10 days in Scotland with no problems) but I can still turn up at a track and lap as fast as anything else.The E11 was going to cover a lot of those bases to expand the brand out of that niche.
The Zenos would certainly have fulfilled the last criteria, but struggled at the first two. That's why I was looking forward to the E11...
Max_Torque said:
And it wasn't very well filled for very good reasons:
1) For the UK market, weather gear IS important. It rains, it's cold, you need a decent roof, doors and HVAC / demister if you really want to use the car on more than the odd sunny sunday
2) Not that many people will want to drop £30k+ on a toy car for those few sunny sundays
3) The sort of person that might have £30k+ to drop on a sunny sunday car will have other things to spend it on. Be that second hand sports cars from the tier above (s/h 911 etc), or from the tier below (s/h caterham etc)
I guess some arguable points given that Ariel seem to be doing ok and have an 12-18 month waiting list. 1) For the UK market, weather gear IS important. It rains, it's cold, you need a decent roof, doors and HVAC / demister if you really want to use the car on more than the odd sunny sunday
2) Not that many people will want to drop £30k+ on a toy car for those few sunny sundays
3) The sort of person that might have £30k+ to drop on a sunny sunday car will have other things to spend it on. Be that second hand sports cars from the tier above (s/h 911 etc), or from the tier below (s/h caterham etc)
ash73 said:
Disagree, that would be absolutely the sweetspot for me. However it's not where I would say Zenos is pitched, except in price. Nobody buys these things as everyday cars you can get a runabout for buttons. I'd love a 1.5 MX5 with a removable screen, but I don't want something that looks like a kit car.
The stock MX5 is a tad sensible, track day specials like Zenos are too compromised, and there's a glut of £50K toys which have far more performance (and cost) than you need; there's a gap for a £30K back-to-basics sports car which is an occasion to drive without going mad, imo.
This is one of the main reasons I swapped my Caterham for an Abarth 124 Spider - it is the very definition of a £30k sportscar with useable (ie not so much power that you can't use it) performance and is an occasion to drive without going mad... Just look at last night's Grand Tour..The stock MX5 is a tad sensible, track day specials like Zenos are too compromised, and there's a glut of £50K toys which have far more performance (and cost) than you need; there's a gap for a £30K back-to-basics sports car which is an occasion to drive without going mad, imo.
The 124 spider to me is like the gt86 /brz- great cars but needing a little more
The zenos e10 was always going to compromised but if you liked the 124 then the e11/e12 would have blown you away.
I got my e10r in April last year and things were going great for the coupe e11.
I can say that there was a lot more than some sketches and virtual renders. It was a real proposition.
What I did see looked amazing - people want a baby McLaren/lambo type car then this was about a close as you could get.
Not a stripped out track car - hvac, air con option, boot, windscreen doors roof.
(Btw the e10r removable windscreen is heated which I much prefer and works great)
I honestly think I would have got one alongside the e10r.
I think if the e11 had been show ready for autosport the headlines now would be polar opposite. I just hope that it's close enough that somebody can see the value in it that it's a car that should and deserves to be made
The zenos e10 was always going to compromised but if you liked the 124 then the e11/e12 would have blown you away.
I got my e10r in April last year and things were going great for the coupe e11.
I can say that there was a lot more than some sketches and virtual renders. It was a real proposition.
What I did see looked amazing - people want a baby McLaren/lambo type car then this was about a close as you could get.
Not a stripped out track car - hvac, air con option, boot, windscreen doors roof.
(Btw the e10r removable windscreen is heated which I much prefer and works great)
I honestly think I would have got one alongside the e10r.
I think if the e11 had been show ready for autosport the headlines now would be polar opposite. I just hope that it's close enough that somebody can see the value in it that it's a car that should and deserves to be made
ash73 said:
Max_Torque said:
4) The middle ground, a car which is trying to not be too extreme, but is more extreme than say an MX5, isn't actually a very good proposition. It's not crazy enough to sit on it's own (see Mono/Ariel) but it's too compromised to be an everyday car, which leads back to point 1), which is where we came in.
Disagree, that would be absolutely the sweetspot for me. However it's not where I would say Zenos is pitched, except in price. Nobody buys these things as everyday cars you can get a runabout for buttons. I'd love a 1.5 MX5 with a removable screen, but I don't want something that looks like a kit car.The stock MX5 is a tad sensible, track day specials like Zenos are too compromised, and there's a glut of £50K toys which have far more performance (and cost) than you need; there's a gap for a £30K back-to-basics sports car which is an occasion to drive without going mad, imo.
ZOLLAR said:
If they aren't sold as a going concern (i.e. support network for existing owners remains) I wonder what will happen to values and servicing etc?
There's 9 for sale atm on PH.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=us...
Will the values remain due to limited production or will they drop due to no support? (I can't imagine it'll be hard to find someone who could service and maintain one and they appear to be well built).
Selling with a fully factory warranty seems a little disingenuous at bestThere's 9 for sale atm on PH.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=us...
Will the values remain due to limited production or will they drop due to no support? (I can't imagine it'll be hard to find someone who could service and maintain one and they appear to be well built).
blue al said:
Selling with a fully factory warranty seems a little disingenuous at best
I am guessing they wrote the advert before all this happened. Most of the cars advertised are from the Zenos dealer network so they would have been carrying out any warranty work on behalf of the factory. I've been waiting for this news ever since I first read of the E10 on Pistonheads. Easily the ugliest sports car on sale today (and going up against the hideous Alfa 4C, that's some achievement), and (IIRC?) turbocharged only? 4-cylinder engine kind of restricts its appeal to those who'd buy a used GT3 (or even a Boxster or Cayman) instead... I feel for the people involved, but it's no surprise really. The car was pursuing a near-invisible micro-niche, and making anything with no roof in this country is daft. It had nothing new to offer to Lotus owners, lacked the Caterham's iconic classic status and renowned handling excellencce, and similarly wasn't going to persuade anyone out of their Morgans...
RoverP6B said:
I've been waiting for this news ever since I first read of the E10 on Pistonheads. Easily the ugliest sports car on sale today (and going up against the hideous Alfa 4C, that's some achievement), and (IIRC?) turbocharged only? 4-cylinder engine kind of restricts its appeal to those who'd buy a used GT3 (or even a Boxster or Cayman) instead... I feel for the people involved, but it's no surprise really. The car was pursuing a near-invisible micro-niche, and making anything with no roof in this country is daft. It had nothing new to offer to Lotus owners, lacked the Caterham's iconic classic status and renowned handling excellencce, and similarly wasn't going to persuade anyone out of their Morgans...
I bet you're a joy at parties. Maybe this would be a good time for some images of the coupe to "leak". Likely investors (if they've managed to find any) will have seen them already, but what if they could build a groundswell of support and positive engagement within the community? Might convince such an investor to jump on board.
The downside to that, of course, would likely also bring wider attention on their status.
It's a tricky situation. I just hope they can survive.
The downside to that, of course, would likely also bring wider attention on their status.
It's a tricky situation. I just hope they can survive.
dxg said:
Maybe this would be a good time for some images of the coupe to "leak". Likely investors (if they've managed to find any) will have seen them already, but what if they could build a groundswell of support and positive engagement within the community? Might convince such an investor to jump on board.
The downside to that, of course, would likely also bring wider attention on their status.
It's a tricky situation. I just hope they can survive.
I agree - if there ever was a time to leak some images, now is it. The downside to that, of course, would likely also bring wider attention on their status.
It's a tricky situation. I just hope they can survive.
RoverP6B said:
..... and (IIRC?) turbocharged only?
Not correct. Also:
RoverP6B said:
....It had nothing new to offer to Lotus owners
What it did offer was a Lotus driving experience (or very similar) to the tall and powerfully built who demand Lotus build an Elise they can get into. The Zenos was designed with this in mind from the outset. The E11 would have added doors and a roof.
It's also worth remembering that the current Elise is quite a bit heavier than the S1, as well as being endowed with the latest driving aides. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but the E11 would likely have been the closest new car you can get to the S1 Elise. But with much more power.
Edited by SpudLink on Thursday 26th January 13:31
Edited by SpudLink on Thursday 26th January 13:32
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