RE: Alpine A110 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman

[williamp]

Julian Thompson said:

I don’t think the Alpine actually competes for Cayman money. I think it competes for Elise money, in the real world.

90% of Cayman owners wouldn’t have even heard of the Alpine and even if they had when you’ve decided you’re buying yourself a Porsche it’s not easy to have your mind changed.

Elise buyers on the whole are a more esoteric bunch, I venture...

Sorry to ask but.... are you **the** julian Thompson, designer of the Lotus Elise?????

[SidewaysSi]

Hobbit1 said:

It’s just such a tragedy they got the styling, and the price point so wrong.

Sell it at £35k against a ‘faux’ sports car like a TT and you’ve a winner. At £50k! not so much.

Imo they’ve got an uphill struggle here to move these unless the numbers are so limited in which case why bother at all.

If popularity is no measure of success, you’ve surely got to look to break even to stay in business. Or is it just a pr exercise in which case at least make it look good.

Almost agree but I actually think they should be priced in the £12-15k mark. Against a Polo, it would be no brainer.

[Julian Thompson]

DaveGB said:

the_hood said:

Julian Thompson said:

I don’t think the Alpine actually competes for Cayman money. I think it competes for Elise money, in the real world.

...

This.

Why doesn’t it ? I considered a Cayman and chose the Alpine as a better car. I’ve had 3 911’s including a GT3, so the argument that Porsche owner would never consider one is bizarre (not that you said that directly) . I’ve seen on the Alpine forums 2 new owners have dropped 911’s for the car. There will be certain people who just want the Porsche badge rather than the driving experience, which is a shame.

Don’t get me wrong the 718 is a great car, but the price soon shoots up when you add options. The seats for example I found to be very poor in basic spec, so there’s a couple of grand for starters. You only need to wander around a Porsche showroom and look at their cars on display to often find £15k, £20k+ of options added to a base car. Madness.

Apart from value , I think the Alpine ri has more enjoyment to the driving experience than out and out speed, Refreshing to experience tbh.

As a whole package I can’t think of any other car around £50k that beats the Alpine. Probably why it’s raved about by the car magazines and has a 12-18 month waiting list.

As with any car, go test drive one and then come back with your views. Have the same discussion with people around Lotus’s .

Edited by DaveGB on Saturday 1st September 20:08

Yes to be clear Dave I’m absolutely in agreement that Porsche owners would choose an Alpine. I’d absolutely buy one myself in a heartbeat and I’m a huge Porsche fan.

What I meant was that “en masse” the majority of Cayman buyers (and that probably excludes enthusiasts who would be on a motoring forum) would not be swayed by the Alpine even if it offered a superior drive to the Porsche, and in reality it will be the enthusiasts that buy the French car instead of an Elise or other esoteric choice.

So just in case there was doubt I have the Alpine app on my phone and I’ve hovered around it myself! Tremendous car. But I’m a typical nerdy buyer. Ask my neighbours what it is and they’ll say “no idea” - ask them what a Cayman is and they’ll know, instantly.

[Niffty951]

CABC said:

Niffty951 said:

With the real world and options in the second hand market, 50k puts it in 911tt, Aston V8, Audi R8 bracket for my money.

fair enough, for you maybe, but they're in a different segment. different driving experience.

Bravo Renault/Alpine. Looks like a proper driver's car.

I just cannot reconcile a twist and go car as a drivers car. More with a RWD than any other format.

This is an opinion based on my driving experiences rather than any prejudice, I was as excited by the DSG revolution as anyone until I drive one. I went back for BMW's 8-speed 'it's nothing like any auto you've driven before sir' but even if you adapt to drive around their shortcomings, the feeling of disconnection from the driving wheels is dull.

You could learn to feel that difference even in an MX5. The disconnection from the experience you get in an auto puts you in a bubble. A dangerous place to be in a vehicle.

[kainedog]

The Renault looks like a kit car , ugly as sin

[Hobbit1]

SidewaysSi said:

Hobbit1 said:

It’s just such a tragedy they got the styling, and the price point so wrong.

Sell it at £35k against a ‘faux’ sports car like a TT and you’ve a winner. At £50k! not so much.

Imo they’ve got an uphill struggle here to move these unless the numbers are so limited in which case why bother at all.

If popularity is no measure of success, you’ve surely got to look to break even to stay in business. Or is it just a pr exercise in which case at least make it look good.

Almost agree but I actually think they should be priced in the £12-15k mark. Against a Polo, it would be no brainer.

Didn’t we already do this on page 1?

Hobbit1 said:

SidewaysSi said:

Hobbit1 said:

It’s just such a tragedy they got the styling, and the price point so wrong.

Sell it at £35k against a ‘faux’ sports car like a TT and you’ve a winner. At £50k! not so much.

Imo they’ve got an uphill struggle here to move these unless the numbers are so limited in which case why bother at all.

If popularity is no measure of success, you’ve surely got to look to break even to stay in business. Or is it just a pr exercise in which case at least make it look good.

Almost agree but I actually think they should be priced in the £12-15k mark. Against a Polo, it would be no brainer.

Yes, if they can build them for less than that, otherwise kind of misses the point about breaking even, they may be French but are still a business.

50k is the wrong market for them imo, no chance residuals will beat Porsche either no matter how limited the numbers produced, and the ‘50k Renault’ moniker will stick, as the UK market is ridiculously snobby. VW, by contrast, command far more respect despite the reality (unreliability) of the cars.

[HardtopManual]

GroundEffect said:

I'm guessing those saying the Alpine is ugly are 17yo and aren't even aware of the original A110 that it's based on?

Fully aware, and while the styling cues are obvious, it just doesn't do it for me. The waistline is too high and the wheels are too big. It's lost its muse's delicacy - it might not weigh much but it looks pumped-up and lardy, where the old one was lithe and sleek.

[E65Ross]

HardtopManual said:

GroundEffect said:

I'm guessing those saying the Alpine is ugly are 17yo and aren't even aware of the original A110 that it's based on?

Fully aware, and while the styling cues are obvious, it just doesn't do it for me. The waistline is too high and the wheels are too big. It's lost its muse's delicacy - it might not weigh much but it looks pumped-up and lardy, where the old one was lithe and sleek.

Plus, what does the fact age and being aware of the original have anything to do with whether you think it's a good looking car or not?

Aesthetics is a personal preference. Some people think the Countach is a great looking car, I think it's a mess....if Lambo made a look-alike today, should I automatically like it, because I am aware of the car it'd be based upon, or should I judge it according to my own feelings about it instead? I'd choose the latter.

[DaveGB]

Julian Thompson said:

Yes to be clear Dave I’m absolutely in agreement that Porsche owners would choose an Alpine. I’d absolutely buy one myself in a heartbeat and I’m a huge Porsche fan.

What I meant was that “en masse” the majority of Cayman buyers (and that probably excludes enthusiasts who would be on a motoring forum) would not be swayed by the Alpine even if it offered a superior drive to the Porsche, and in reality it will be the enthusiasts that buy the French car instead of an Elise or other esoteric choice.

So just in case there was doubt I have the Alpine app on my phone and I’ve hovered around it myself! Tremendous car. But I’m a typical nerdy buyer. Ask my neighbours what it is and they’ll say “no idea” - ask them what a Cayman is and they’ll know, instantly.

Agree with that Julian. Alpine had a stand at Salon Prive today, which is probably the right thing to raise brand awareness amongst the people who may consider a Porsche. BAC did the same with the Mono. Wasn’t selling at £85k so completely changed their marketing towards a different demographic and doubled asking price . Voila they sell more cars . Bizarre world we live in ?

Edited by DaveGB on Saturday 1st September 22:40

[CABC]

Niffty951 said:

CABC said:

Niffty951 said:

With the real world and options in the second hand market, 50k puts it in 911tt, Aston V8, Audi R8 bracket for my money.

fair enough, for you maybe, but they're in a different segment. different driving experience.

Bravo Renault/Alpine. Looks like a proper driver's car.

I just cannot reconcile a twist and go car as a drivers car. More with a RWD than any other format.

This is an opinion based on my driving experiences rather than any prejudice, I was as excited by the DSG revolution as anyone until I drive one. I went back for BMW's 8-speed 'it's nothing like any auto you've driven before sir' but even if you adapt to drive around their shortcomings, the feeling of disconnection from the driving wheels is dull.

You could learn to feel that difference even in an MX5. The disconnection from the experience you get in an auto puts you in a bubble. A dangerous place to be in a vehicle.

yes, it's a concern for me too.
i think the answer might be to preserve my Elise as it might become an asset and maybe enjoy an Alpine in addition. i'm sure a spreadsheet for swmbo is in order "look, it makes money this way!"

[Julian Thompson]

CABC said:

yes, it's a concern for me too.
i think the answer might be to preserve my Elise as it might become an asset and maybe enjoy an Alpine in addition. i'm sure a spreadsheet for swmbo is in order "look, it makes money this way!"

Heheh if I was good at smileys I would add one of those massive grin ones. Go Excel, Go!

[mlcgd21]

Venisonpie said:

Interesting insight. I was about to order an Alpine but the lead time meant I bought an Elise 220. I love it other than the access issue and have put the Alpine idea on hold. The manual box and Targa roof really make the elise- how are you finding the auto in comparison? I only need a toy car so practical considerations are low.

The auto is great, works perfectly! I also have a 997 pdk and 991 both pdk and I enjoy the Alpine gearbox, much better than what I expected.

I had a 981 Cayman for 1 year and in all honestly I didn't enjoyed it nearly as much as I'm enjoying the A110.

[MawsleyCarValeting]

Spent some time with the car and the guys at Alpine while working London Concours and met them at Concours of elegance Friday and I must say the cars a lot better in the flesh and I love the interior. I have a 4C and an M2 and to be honest I don’t think you can compare it to either especially a Porsche Cayman. 119 of the 350 available build slots for next year have already been taken, Will this take customers away from Porsche? don’t really care it’s not what I worry about when buying a car. If you’ve never seen the car in real life and it’s potentially on your list of new cars I suggest you nip down to one of the dealers and have a look for yourself this will help you understand the brand and the history of the vehicle a lot more.

[Jeremy JS]

TBH, I think the Alpine needs a price advantage here. It's nice, but you are stepping down in terms of build quality, durability, infotainment, storage and cup holders ! If it's rare, it won't depreciate which will help early buyers, but that would be a shame and pyrrhic victory because it's not sustainable for the manufacturer. The thing about the Cayman, 86, MX5 is that they justify their spots on a daily driver relative value basis - people keep buying new ones even when there are a lot on the road.

[Aluxo]

Porsche911R said:

It’s an automatic, so that’s that really, a none starter for most people.

It feels a bit of a camp car to me, I expect a few men in salmon chino's at a few events to be stepping out the cars !

That’s why the 991.2 GT3 PDK still outsells the manual 3:1
And isn’t that salmon chino thing the definition of entry-level ans SUV Porsche owners? The “look-at-me” type of people?

[Kenny Powers]

Very nice cars but at this sort of money I’d walk past both of them to get into the M2 Competition. A different proposition of course, but way more pugnacious and, to me, way cooler.

Choice is good though, and it’s great that the Renault exists, even if it has some switchgear from a 2003 Clio

[j_s14a]

It boils down to which commits the worst crime; The ugliness of the Alpine, or the innate dullness of the Porsche.

[Helicopter123]

MawsleyCarValeting said:

Spent some time with the car and the guys at Alpine while working London Concours and met them at Concours of elegance Friday and I must say the cars a lot better in the flesh and I love the interior. I have a 4C and an M2 and to be honest I don’t think you can compare it to either especially a Porsche Cayman. 119 of the 350 available build slots for next year have already been taken, Will this take customers away from Porsche? don’t really care it’s not what I worry about when buying a car. If you’ve never seen the car in real life and it’s potentially on your list of new cars I suggest you nip down to one of the dealers and have a look for yourself this will help you understand the brand and the history of the vehicle a lot more.

So less than 1/3 of UK cars available over the next year sold? I thought 18 month waiting list? If that’s the case you will see discounts soon and then possibly lease deals? Not good for residuals but possibly very good news for used buyers.

[springfan62]

As a teenager in the 1970's Porsche were always the brand I aspired to, they produced exciting cars.

I have only owned one though a 1972 911S, a truly fun car that made me smile every time I used it.
Modern Porsches have lost that edge, they are too capable, heavy and overloaded with technology.
They are designed with gearing best suited to Autobahns.

The Alpine though is a thoroughly modern car that steps back a little to those previous generations of cars where the driver is more involved in the experience.

Much depends on what your priorities are, if you want practicality the Cayman is probably better, you may arrive quicker in the Cayman but the Alpine will be the one that brings the smile to your face.

Having recently driven and ordered an Alpine I am happy to put my money into a car that I will enjoy owning. I have never owned a Renault or an Alpine before but I am buying this on the back of what the car actually does rather than loyalty to a brand or the need to have a badge to pose in.

Alpine have done an exceptional job and deserve some success with it.

[MJK 24]

JMF894 said:

Romo said:

The name of the game; WEIGHT

Al modern cars are far to heavy, it makes them dull and lifeless in driving experience. You can't beat physics.

So kudos for the Alpine, 1100kg is a masterpiece compared by current weight standards.

I've driven all kind of BMW M`s, my current M2 is nice and all, but 1550 kg is a shame for such a car, I used to own a 981CGTS, nice yes, but 1400kg, so they are all obese.

A long, very long time ago, I used to own a Honda CRX 1.6i VTEC, 1010 kg, 160 HP, it was the nicest drive of them al.

Edited by Romo on Saturday 1st September 12:06

Until you have an accident with a modern 1500kgs car then you'll be wishing your nice drive had more substance. Old, lightweight cars are all well and good but as a daily i'll take my heavy modern barge everyday. That's why they are what they are; to keep you safe. And that's why comparing old with new is disigenious. Old cars' weights were dictated by the same rules as new ones, it's just that the rules, and technology have moved on. I agree lightweight makes for a better drive but people must understand what you get and don't get with with such a car. What more people should be doing is spending less on the daily so there's a bit left for the fun. That way the bloated daily won't annoy quite so much.

The Alfa Romeo Giulia is the lightest car in its class and went on to receive the highest ever score for occupant protection in Euro N Cap tests. Yes, it even beat the new Volvo XC90 for occupant protection.