Fast middle lane hoggers
Discussion
The M4 and M3 are more old fashioned three lane motorways (not yet uprated to variable speed gantries and cameras). Lane discipline is observed, by and large, unless the carriageway is full of traffic.
Get on to the M25 (four or five lanes) and everyone switches to driving at about 65-70 mph in lanes two and three (or three and four if it is a five lane section).
Multiple times on late evening journeys I can pass between ten and twenty 65mph lane three and four dawdlers just by continuing my merry way in lane one or two.
I just can't see the sense in leaving lane one, crossing lanes two and three (and four) in order to overtake the dawdlers before returning back across to lane one and repeat, and repeat.
Also, on the other hand, what is the point of sitting out in lane four and five, when lanes one and two are clear for about 80% of the journey, as I am in effect taking up the last available overtaking lane and blocking those who want to progress faster than me...? And quite often, I am passing the dawdlers in lane one whilst all of us are being passed by a camera clued up/not bothered about camera vehicle in lane five.
Honestly, at quieter times on the M25, I reckon there are about three vehicles per mile in lanes one and two, and about sixty vehicles per mile in lanes three and four. In effect, people think, "It's quiet, we only need a three lane motorway, so we'll ignore lanes one and two, and just leave lane five clear for the "nutters" who want to do 70mph+.
It seems odd to me how most drivers use the M25 lately.
Get on to the M25 (four or five lanes) and everyone switches to driving at about 65-70 mph in lanes two and three (or three and four if it is a five lane section).
Multiple times on late evening journeys I can pass between ten and twenty 65mph lane three and four dawdlers just by continuing my merry way in lane one or two.
I just can't see the sense in leaving lane one, crossing lanes two and three (and four) in order to overtake the dawdlers before returning back across to lane one and repeat, and repeat.
Also, on the other hand, what is the point of sitting out in lane four and five, when lanes one and two are clear for about 80% of the journey, as I am in effect taking up the last available overtaking lane and blocking those who want to progress faster than me...? And quite often, I am passing the dawdlers in lane one whilst all of us are being passed by a camera clued up/not bothered about camera vehicle in lane five.
Honestly, at quieter times on the M25, I reckon there are about three vehicles per mile in lanes one and two, and about sixty vehicles per mile in lanes three and four. In effect, people think, "It's quiet, we only need a three lane motorway, so we'll ignore lanes one and two, and just leave lane five clear for the "nutters" who want to do 70mph+.
It seems odd to me how most drivers use the M25 lately.
Edited by courty on Wednesday 21st November 21:51
Edited by courty on Wednesday 21st November 21:56
The M25 between the M23 and M26 are really bad, I do that section once a week between 6-7pm, like tonight. I think i was in lane 3/4 for maybe for a minute at most, otherwise, lane 1 at 70mph, into lane 2 to overtake a lorry, back into lane 1. I was able to keep the CC on 70mph all the way heading east, must have passed 30+ cars/vans sat in lanes 3 and 4 in the 10 mile section.
Hey, it gives me a nice clear lane 1 to drive in, even at just after rush hour on the M25!
Hey, it gives me a nice clear lane 1 to drive in, even at just after rush hour on the M25!
Muddle238 said:
WJNB said:
given a clear motorway with nothing in lane 1 in sight that's were I'll be.
So if you can see an HGV a quarter of a mile ahead in L1, with yourself gaining on it while in L2 at around a 10mph speed differential, it will take you 1.5 MILES to get level with the rear of its trailer. That's 1.4 miles which you could travel in L1 (as you are required to do so by law), to enable faster moving traffic to progress past you without having to squeeze the entire motorway network behind you into L3 to legally pass yourself. By sticking it out in L2 because you can see a lorry ahead, just causes more congestion around you. Move back to L1, if you can spend 10 seconds or more in L1 then that's where you should be. Making multiple lanes changes per minute in accordance with this is part of modern driving, it allows traffic to flow. I get sick to death of being out in L3 with an Audi or Beemer up my arse, while I try to get past someone sitting in L2 who has ample space to move left but refuses because of the minimal amount of brain power it requires to do so.
Most of the problems referred to in threads like this are caused by people wanting to drive faster than 70.
.. and there's not a lot wrong with doing a steady 68, where conditions allow you to go as fast as that. That is, after all, 97% of the limit. The limit is a maximum, not a target or a minimum.
courty said:
The M4 and M3 are more old fashioned three lane motorways (not yet uprated to variable speed gantries and cameras). Lane discipline is observed, by and large, unless the carriageway is full of traffic.
I'm guessing you don't live anywhere near Berkshire/Surrey then - the M3 has been a "Smart" motorway for a year or so! Even if it did take more than 3 years to turn it into one (or in real terms, to f*ck it up).Edited by courty on Wednesday 21st November 21:56
And work has just started to do the same to the M4.
Lane discipline on the "new" M3 is generally ignored - 2 lanes just don't get used so it was a total waste of time and money IMHO.
CABC said:
BusaMK said:
I do about 20k on the motorway a year so I of course hate MLMs who are inconsiderate and don’t give a damn, but I really don’t see the big issue staying in L2 if you’re making progress and not holding anyone up - you’re also avoiding the sometimes broken up lane surface, ruts and associated standing water from Lorries in L1, which is a recommended technique in the plod manual I’m sure.
If you have a big speed differential it makes sense to not go into lane 1 as you can also see further in front of the traffic in L1 which you otherwise wouldn’t see. Lastly, switching lanes constantly when you’re making progress also plays havoc with radar cruise control and is probably a big reason why more and more cars stay in L2 and L3. So it isn’t as black and white as people think in the real world. Maybe I’m wrong though...
i think you're right.If you have a big speed differential it makes sense to not go into lane 1 as you can also see further in front of the traffic in L1 which you otherwise wouldn’t see. Lastly, switching lanes constantly when you’re making progress also plays havoc with radar cruise control and is probably a big reason why more and more cars stay in L2 and L3. So it isn’t as black and white as people think in the real world. Maybe I’m wrong though...
not everyone staying in L2 is an MLM.
BusaMK said:
I really don’t see the big issue staying in L2 if you’re making progress and not holding anyone up - you’re also avoiding the sometimes broken up lane surface, ruts and associated standing water from Lorries in L1, which is a recommended technique in the plod manual I’m sure.
Whenever I see plod on the motorway they're either pootling in L1, or tearing down the outside or hard shoulder with blues on...Having had a small sportscar in the past I understand the tramlining concerns but it came down to me having decided to have a silly car and live with the consequences, which meant having to do more work when driving.
The argument to hog the middle lane due to tramlines is akin to when people buy a hardcore racing bike then cycle down the middle of the carriageway because the cycle lane running parallel isn't marble-smooth.
donkmeister said:
BusaMK said:
I really don’t see the big issue staying in L2 if you’re making progress and not holding anyone up - you’re also avoiding the sometimes broken up lane surface, ruts and associated standing water from Lorries in L1, which is a recommended technique in the plod manual I’m sure.
Whenever I see plod on the motorway they're either pootling in L1, or tearing down the outside or hard shoulder with blues on...Having had a small sportscar in the past I understand the tramlining concerns but it came down to me having decided to have a silly car and live with the consequences, which meant having to do more work when driving.
The argument to hog the middle lane due to tramlines is akin to when people buy a hardcore racing bike then cycle down the middle of the carriageway because the cycle lane running parallel isn't marble-smooth.
Or do they because of the progress they are making relative to what other people behind are doing stay in lane 3 despite the spaces available to the nearside (ergo not keeping left unless overtaking - all be it whilst not holding anybody else up)?
I think some of these arguments stem from not thinking about the same motorway.
To some, a motorway is a free moving road with loads of space between vehicles.
To others, like me, a motorway is a clogged, speed camera’d nightmare with junctions every couple of miles, a wall of HGVs in L1, plenty in L2, and nutters in L4.
These are very different roads.
To some, a motorway is a free moving road with loads of space between vehicles.
To others, like me, a motorway is a clogged, speed camera’d nightmare with junctions every couple of miles, a wall of HGVs in L1, plenty in L2, and nutters in L4.
These are very different roads.
swisstoni said:
I think some of these arguments stem from not thinking about the same motorway.
To some, a motorway is a free moving road with loads of space between vehicles.
To others, like me, a motorway is a clogged, speed camera’d nightmare with junctions every couple of miles, a wall of HGVs in L1, plenty in L2, and nutters in L4.
These are very different roads.
This is probably true.To some, a motorway is a free moving road with loads of space between vehicles.
To others, like me, a motorway is a clogged, speed camera’d nightmare with junctions every couple of miles, a wall of HGVs in L1, plenty in L2, and nutters in L4.
These are very different roads.
But what does happen though is that people are creatures of habit. So for those that primarily drive on heavily populated roads, resulting in them adopting/driving more to a US style, this becomes their norm & they tend to then adopt a similar style (through habit) on the less congested roads that still have a decent amount of traffic.
vonhosen said:
When they are tearing down the outside in Lane 3, do they move into every nearside gap available that they could ?
Or do they because of the progress they are making relative to what other people behind are doing stay in lane 3 despite the spaces available to the nearside (ergo not keeping left unless overtaking - all be it whilst not holding anybody else up)?
Police driving on blues is a special case... They (generally) keep in the outside lane because everyone in front of them is obliged to get the funk out of their way. Much as I would love other drivers to extend this courtesy to me on my daily commute it won't happen.Or do they because of the progress they are making relative to what other people behind are doing stay in lane 3 despite the spaces available to the nearside (ergo not keeping left unless overtaking - all be it whilst not holding anybody else up)?
I was simply incredulous that a police manual would advocate MLMing.
vonhosen said:
PF62 said:
theboss said:
PF62 said:
As before, if you are not overtaking whatever your perceived reasons you are a MLM.
Really how hard is it. Overtaking = not MLM. Not overtaking = MLM.
I hate MLM with a passion but I disagree with this. If I'm really 'making progress' I'll avoid L1 if the surface is particularly poor and I'll use L3 to pass traffic in L1 just to give a wide berth. If nobody is behind and gaining on me, I'm not inconveniencing anyone and thus lane discipline isn't really applicable. A bit like using the full width of a single carriageway really.Really how hard is it. Overtaking = not MLM. Not overtaking = MLM.
]
Nope, they are MLMs.
PF62 said:
vonhosen said:
PF62 said:
theboss said:
PF62 said:
As before, if you are not overtaking whatever your perceived reasons you are a MLM.
Really how hard is it. Overtaking = not MLM. Not overtaking = MLM.
I hate MLM with a passion but I disagree with this. If I'm really 'making progress' I'll avoid L1 if the surface is particularly poor and I'll use L3 to pass traffic in L1 just to give a wide berth. If nobody is behind and gaining on me, I'm not inconveniencing anyone and thus lane discipline isn't really applicable. A bit like using the full width of a single carriageway really.Really how hard is it. Overtaking = not MLM. Not overtaking = MLM.
Nope, they are MLMs.
MLM is a label you & the people who think like you make up & use.
It's not a term the authorities use/recognise for the behaviour you apply it to.
Your interpretation of the behaviour (& also what identifiable behaviour qualifies or not as a MLM for you) is of no consequence to those who perform that behaviour or indeed to the authorities. They don't align themselves with your personal view, nor do they have to.
What matters universally is how the authorities interpret that behaviour & what management policies they have to influence that behaviour &/or enforce it. They have the power to do something about & shape/influence it if they wish, but you don't.
In short you aren't aligned with their prescription of the behaviour, you are just like somebody shouting & pissing into a hurricane.
So in your own little world yes they are MLMs (& of course you are free to apply that label, whilst equally they are free to apply any s
tty little label they want to you based on their own made up labels & interpretations of them). But outside of your own little world your interpretation/view doesn't matter because it carries & is of no consequence. It's as easy for them to dismiss as it is for you to apply.You may as well be a 5 year old in the playground saying
"You're a stinky pooh face"
Them replying
"Sticks & stones may break my bones........"
And then just repeating the same thing ad nauseam.
It means or changes nothing.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 22 November 14:14
donkmeister said:
vonhosen said:
When they are tearing down the outside in Lane 3, do they move into every nearside gap available that they could ?
Or do they because of the progress they are making relative to what other people behind are doing stay in lane 3 despite the spaces available to the nearside (ergo not keeping left unless overtaking - all be it whilst not holding anybody else up)?
Police driving on blues is a special case... They (generally) keep in the outside lane because everyone in front of them is obliged to get the funk out of their way. Much as I would love other drivers to extend this courtesy to me on my daily commute it won't happen.Or do they because of the progress they are making relative to what other people behind are doing stay in lane 3 despite the spaces available to the nearside (ergo not keeping left unless overtaking - all be it whilst not holding anybody else up)?
I was simply incredulous that a police manual would advocate MLMing.
Moving faster than other traffic, not holding others up & not moving back to the nearside when not overtaking.
vonhosen said:
Nope.
MLM is a label you & the people who think like you make up & use.
It's not a term the authorities use/recognise for the behaviour you apply it to.
Your interpretation of the behaviour (& also what identifiable behaviour qualifies or not as a MLM for you) is of no consequence to those who perform that behaviour or indeed to the authorities. They don't align themselves with your personal view, nor do they have to.
What matters universally is how the authorities interpret that behaviour & what management policies they have to influence that behaviour &/or enforce it. They have the power to do something about & shape/influence it if they wish, but you don't.
In short you aren't aligned with their prescription of the behaviour, you are just like somebody shouting & pissing into a hurricane.
So in your own little world yes they are MLMs (& of course you are free to apply that label, whilst equally they are free to apply any stty little label they want to you based on their own made up labels & interpretations of them). But outside of your own little world your interpretation/view doesn't matter because it carries & is of no consequence. It's as easy for them to dismiss as it is for you to apply.
You may as well be a 5 year old in the playground saying
"You're a stinky pooh face"
Them replying
"Sticks & stones may break my bones........"
And the just repeating the same thing ad nauseam.
It means or changes nothing.
Seems like I have touched on a sore point amongst the MLM road gods.MLM is a label you & the people who think like you make up & use.
It's not a term the authorities use/recognise for the behaviour you apply it to.
Your interpretation of the behaviour (& also what identifiable behaviour qualifies or not as a MLM for you) is of no consequence to those who perform that behaviour or indeed to the authorities. They don't align themselves with your personal view, nor do they have to.
What matters universally is how the authorities interpret that behaviour & what management policies they have to influence that behaviour &/or enforce it. They have the power to do something about & shape/influence it if they wish, but you don't.
In short you aren't aligned with their prescription of the behaviour, you are just like somebody shouting & pissing into a hurricane.
So in your own little world yes they are MLMs (& of course you are free to apply that label, whilst equally they are free to apply any s
tty little label they want to you based on their own made up labels & interpretations of them). But outside of your own little world your interpretation/view doesn't matter because it carries & is of no consequence. It's as easy for them to dismiss as it is for you to apply.You may as well be a 5 year old in the playground saying
"You're a stinky pooh face"
Them replying
"Sticks & stones may break my bones........"
And the just repeating the same thing ad nauseam.
It means or changes nothing.
PF62 said:
vonhosen said:
Nope.
MLM is a label you & the people who think like you make up & use.
It's not a term the authorities use/recognise for the behaviour you apply it to.
Your interpretation of the behaviour (& also what identifiable behaviour qualifies or not as a MLM for you) is of no consequence to those who perform that behaviour or indeed to the authorities. They don't align themselves with your personal view, nor do they have to.
What matters universally is how the authorities interpret that behaviour & what management policies they have to influence that behaviour &/or enforce it. They have the power to do something about & shape/influence it if they wish, but you don't.
In short you aren't aligned with their prescription of the behaviour, you are just like somebody shouting & pissing into a hurricane.
So in your own little world yes they are MLMs (& of course you are free to apply that label, whilst equally they are free to apply any stty little label they want to you based on their own made up labels & interpretations of them). But outside of your own little world your interpretation/view doesn't matter because it carries & is of no consequence. It's as easy for them to dismiss as it is for you to apply.
You may as well be a 5 year old in the playground saying
"You're a stinky pooh face"
Them replying
"Sticks & stones may break my bones........"
And the just repeating the same thing ad nauseam.
It means or changes nothing.
Seems like I have touched on a sore point amongst the MLM road gods.MLM is a label you & the people who think like you make up & use.
It's not a term the authorities use/recognise for the behaviour you apply it to.
Your interpretation of the behaviour (& also what identifiable behaviour qualifies or not as a MLM for you) is of no consequence to those who perform that behaviour or indeed to the authorities. They don't align themselves with your personal view, nor do they have to.
What matters universally is how the authorities interpret that behaviour & what management policies they have to influence that behaviour &/or enforce it. They have the power to do something about & shape/influence it if they wish, but you don't.
In short you aren't aligned with their prescription of the behaviour, you are just like somebody shouting & pissing into a hurricane.
So in your own little world yes they are MLMs (& of course you are free to apply that label, whilst equally they are free to apply any s
tty little label they want to you based on their own made up labels & interpretations of them). But outside of your own little world your interpretation/view doesn't matter because it carries & is of no consequence. It's as easy for them to dismiss as it is for you to apply.You may as well be a 5 year old in the playground saying
"You're a stinky pooh face"
Them replying
"Sticks & stones may break my bones........"
And the just repeating the same thing ad nauseam.
It means or changes nothing.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff