Brexit will change the mix of cars sold in the UK.
Discussion
321boost said:
irocfan said:
in other words we may start to see some sanity return to the UK car market?
Sanity? Why do you want smaller engine cars in the UK? I think that’s insane. Sounds the opposite judging by your name. irocfan said:
I'm thinking more about the new car every 2 or 3 years model with 'old' cars being virtually ignored....
Do you mean old cars being virtually ignored Resulting in less and less demand for them = massive price drop as well as less emissions scrutiny OR
Do you mean it will stop the new car every 2-3 years crowd?
Sorry
markyb_lcy said:
kurokawa said:
PH is just lovely, isn’t it
Always someone will turn motoring into politic and even worse, into a brexit fighting thread.
If we are signed up to commit those emissions I afraid not only SUV would be disappearing(personally love to see SUV gone) but I believe performance 2 seaters might be pull out as well.
It’s a discussion, not a fight.Always someone will turn motoring into politic and even worse, into a brexit fighting thread.
If we are signed up to commit those emissions I afraid not only SUV would be disappearing(personally love to see SUV gone) but I believe performance 2 seaters might be pull out as well.
I find that if you stick to the facts and reality, the logical conclusions fall out at the end, and can't be argued with, getting emotive about remain or leave serves no purpose and just annoys people.
So let's keep the discussion going, but stick to facts that you can support with evidence.
FACT: At the moment CO2 figures for each manufacturer are averaged across the whole EU and must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. - Evidence - this is easy to find (see the linky for fact 3 to start with)
FACT: Come 2021 the UK has agreed that it will average on UK Sales only, which must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. Note, this may change but it is the current position of the government. - Evidence - see previously linked government PDF
FACT: Average UK car sales CO2 figure (2018) is 124.5g. - Evidence - https://www.smmt.co.uk/reports/co2-report/
CONCLUSION: The types of cars, with regard to their CO2 values, sold in the UK will have to change in 2021 to ensure they meet the 95g target or penalties will be applied.
jhoneyball said:
looks like the era of the 500+bhp larger saloon is coming to an end. (AMG etc)
Culling the SUV market would be a fine outcome, though. Especially those faux-off-roader obscenities like the BMW X6, RR Sport.
<ducks for cover>
Not sure I understand the "I dont get it, best ban it" mentality ?Culling the SUV market would be a fine outcome, though. Especially those faux-off-roader obscenities like the BMW X6, RR Sport.
<ducks for cover>
I just dont bother with what doesnt grab me.
321boost said:
irocfan said:
I'm thinking more about the new car every 2 or 3 years model with 'old' cars being virtually ignored....
Do you mean old cars being virtually ignored Resulting in less and less demand for them = massive price drop as well as less emissions scrutiny OR
Do you mean it will stop the new car every 2-3 years crowd?
Sorry
It strikes me as being incredibly wasteful to get a new (ie 1st owner) car every 2/3 years, surely it's more ecologically sound to get a car and keep it for a longer period (may even until it s
ts itself and stops working?). It strikes me that these days a car is 'old' if it's past 2012 or so (or maybe that's just the SE?)As mentioned on here previously: nearly every other new car is (seems to be) an suv of some type or another which, one might imagine, is another environmental dead-end.
Edited by irocfan on Thursday 23 January 17:39
321boost said:
Butter Face said:
Well. Yes. NEDC was 'easy' enough to get around (look at VW etc), WLTP will take a bit more cracking, but as per anything, get anyone smart enough and throw enough money at it and manufacturers will find a way to hit what they're told to hit!
I’m hoping for this. Getting a bit sick and tired of this lowering the emissions trend. Maybe in the fantasy world they will reverse half the eu emission targets once they realise the negative economic impact because it won’t work well in the UK. UK average 127.9g/km.
EU average 120.4g/km
Target for both - 95g/km
Looks to me as higher emitting cars are going to get expensive or unavailable wherever you live. EU consumers maybe will get slightly less of a kicking, but it doesn't look good for thirsty cars either way.
This business of allowing heavier cars to emit more is bks. I can't believe that the automotive lobby was caved in to on that.
EU average 120.4g/km
Target for both - 95g/km
Looks to me as higher emitting cars are going to get expensive or unavailable wherever you live. EU consumers maybe will get slightly less of a kicking, but it doesn't look good for thirsty cars either way.
This business of allowing heavier cars to emit more is b
ks. I can't believe that the automotive lobby was caved in to on that. J4CKO said:
Not sure I understand the "I dont get it, best ban it" mentality ?
I just dont bother with what doesnt grab me.
You sound quite normal. I just dont bother with what doesnt grab me.
By PH standards anyway.
If one starts banning 45mpg 1250kgs 119g SUVs, then any thing more interesting gets banned even before it, so how does that help. Rational thinking is rare on PH, it seems to be the chip on the shoulder doing all the "thinking".
malaccamax said:
Interesting. When you say Hybrid and then HEV - do you mean plug-in hybrid for the Captur and hybrid for the Clio and Megane? So many hybrid variants these days, from mild hybrid, to full hybrid (Toyota's big thing) and plug-in hybrid. Hard to know!
What is 'mild hybrid'? seems to be another name for stop/start.eldar said:
malaccamax said:
Interesting. When you say Hybrid and then HEV - do you mean plug-in hybrid for the Captur and hybrid for the Clio and Megane? So many hybrid variants these days, from mild hybrid, to full hybrid (Toyota's big thing) and plug-in hybrid. Hard to know!
What is 'mild hybrid'? seems to be another name for stop/start.HEV/Hybrid/Full hybrid is petrol/diesel with a electric motor and battery that can run on electric power alone but normally low range
PHEV is plug in hybrid, charges by plugging in and can run on electric only for longer range/can be run in conjunction with the combustion engine.
BEV/EV/electric car is battery only, no combustion motor at all
REX is an electric driven car with a combustion motor to charge the battery.
Basic overview of the differences.
Policy seems bit poorly thought out.
They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
meatballs said:
Policy seems bit poorly thought out.
They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
You’ve answered your own question. The idea of a “pay per mile” taxation system was first raised about 15 years ago (including a variable on what time of day you drove). Went down very badly.They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
Olivergt said:
Exactly, I deliberately tried to simply lay out the facts and the consequences for discussion.
I find that if you stick to the facts and reality, the logical conclusions fall out at the end, and can't be argued with, getting emotive about remain or leave serves no purpose and just annoys people.
So let's keep the discussion going, but stick to facts that you can support with evidence.
FACT: At the moment CO2 figures for each manufacturer are averaged across the whole EU and must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. - Evidence - this is easy to find (see the linky for fact 3 to start with)
FACT: Come 2021 the UK has agreed that it will average on UK Sales only, which must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. Note, this may change but it is the current position of the government. - Evidence - see previously linked government PDF
FACT: Average UK car sales CO2 figure (2018) is 124.5g. - Evidence - https://www.smmt.co.uk/reports/co2-report/
CONCLUSION: The types of cars, with regard to their CO2 values, sold in the UK will have to change in 2021 to ensure they meet the 95g target or penalties will be applied.
I am not against a reasonable discussion.I find that if you stick to the facts and reality, the logical conclusions fall out at the end, and can't be argued with, getting emotive about remain or leave serves no purpose and just annoys people.
So let's keep the discussion going, but stick to facts that you can support with evidence.
FACT: At the moment CO2 figures for each manufacturer are averaged across the whole EU and must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. - Evidence - this is easy to find (see the linky for fact 3 to start with)
FACT: Come 2021 the UK has agreed that it will average on UK Sales only, which must be less than 95g or penalties are applied. Note, this may change but it is the current position of the government. - Evidence - see previously linked government PDF
FACT: Average UK car sales CO2 figure (2018) is 124.5g. - Evidence - https://www.smmt.co.uk/reports/co2-report/
CONCLUSION: The types of cars, with regard to their CO2 values, sold in the UK will have to change in 2021 to ensure they meet the 95g target or penalties will be applied.
I am just saying thread involved politics and brexit always attract those “emotional response” from both leave and remain, not all the replies are, always some will slip pass and annoy everyone.
Doesn’t matter what we voted, but how the future will affect us. If Suzuki really pulling Jimny because of CO2 emission, then I believe it will just be matter of time other manufacturers follow.
Despite how much I dislike SUV, it will be disappointing to see less choice of car in the future. However, I would hope this might be a wake up call for manufacturers to price their EV and hybrid in more affordable sense
Does anyone have a (very) broad idea of how much the manufacturer fines might equate to by individual vehicle?
For example if a manufacturer's fleet average is the current UK average, I wonder what sort of size fine would be levied and how that would translate to higher purchase price for the consumer.
If it was 2% of RRP it might not change buying habits at all. At 5% it would make a difference and at 10% I expect sales would drop significantly.
For example if a manufacturer's fleet average is the current UK average, I wonder what sort of size fine would be levied and how that would translate to higher purchase price for the consumer.
If it was 2% of RRP it might not change buying habits at all. At 5% it would make a difference and at 10% I expect sales would drop significantly.
meatballs said:
Policy seems bit poorly thought out.
They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
It's not poorly thought out - the 2 options you mention are not mutually exclusive and the govt are simply doing both the options.They want to reduce CO2 but aren't targeting the source of the CO2 - the petrol/diesel coming out of the pumps.
A 500g/km vehicle is less polluting than a 96g/km car if it is rarely used.
I suspect raising taxes on fuel wouldn't go down with anyone's voter base though.
(I'm also a bit bitter that I pay full VED on a car that does hardly any miles...)
1. Fuel is already highly taxed and is pretty effective in encouraging people to have fuel efficient cars
2. High VED on 'gas guzzlers' is effective in encouraging people away from these cars, whether they drive them a lot or not. High emissions-per-mile are penalised and that is not unreasonable.
(Owner of 2 vehicles at max VED rates which aren't driven many miles...)
kurokawa said:
I am not against a reasonable discussion.
I am just saying thread involved politics and brexit always attract those “emotional response” from both leave and remain, not all the replies are, always some will slip pass and annoy everyone.
Doesn’t matter what we voted, but how the future will affect us. If Suzuki really pulling Jimny because of CO2 emission, then I believe it will just be matter of time other manufacturers follow.
Despite how much I dislike SUV, it will be disappointing to see less choice of car in the future. However, I would hope this might be a wake up call for manufacturers to price their EV and hybrid in more affordable sense
As someone else posted above, cars need to be zero CO2 by 2040 so the industry will need to massively change over the next 20 years whether in or out of the EU.I am just saying thread involved politics and brexit always attract those “emotional response” from both leave and remain, not all the replies are, always some will slip pass and annoy everyone.
Doesn’t matter what we voted, but how the future will affect us. If Suzuki really pulling Jimny because of CO2 emission, then I believe it will just be matter of time other manufacturers follow.
Despite how much I dislike SUV, it will be disappointing to see less choice of car in the future. However, I would hope this might be a wake up call for manufacturers to price their EV and hybrid in more affordable sense
"The current Road to Zero strategy aims to see between 50% and 70% of new car sales, and up to 40% of van sales, being “ultra-low emission” by 2030, with only sales of “effectively zero emissions” vehicles by 2040."
Imho the industry will be in chaos during this period as EV demand is not there, yet the manufacturers are forced to build EV.
TX.
braddo said:
Does anyone have a (very) broad idea of how much the manufacturer fines might equate to by individual vehicle?
For example if a manufacturer's fleet average is the current UK average, I wonder what sort of size fine would be levied and how that would translate to higher purchase price for the consumer.
If it was 2% of RRP it might not change buying habits at all. At 5% it would make a difference and at 10% I expect sales would drop significantly.
Rules are here;For example if a manufacturer's fleet average is the current UK average, I wonder what sort of size fine would be levied and how that would translate to higher purchase price for the consumer.
If it was 2% of RRP it might not change buying habits at all. At 5% it would make a difference and at 10% I expect sales would drop significantly.
https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
df76 said:
You’ve answered your own question. The idea of a “pay per mile” taxation system was first raised about 15 years ago (including a variable on what time of day you drove). Went down very badly.
one might imagine with the (perceived) current fervor for greenness that this proposal might meet with more favour these days....Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff