RE: McLaren seeks extra funding to mitigate losses

[aelord]

A brand that is very hard to feel any empathy for.

[Rojo]

Christ on a bike, can we all just chill out and have a hug... OK forget the hug.

[Maldini35]

aelord said:

A brand that is very hard to feel any empathy for.

Funny really.
Some bad customer experiences and some disgruntled employees/suppliers and many write the brand off.

Forget that plenty of customers have nothing but good things to say and professional (credible) car journalists constantly rate their cars as the best drivers cars in their segments.
Just look at how many car of the year, best drivers car awards they’ve won over the last few years.
Not perfect (eg. engine tone) but nonetheless spectacularly thrilling things to throw around.

People who’ve never owned a McLaren are queuing up to put the boot in. Perhaps motivated by loyalty to their preferred brand - who knows?

I guess in the world we live in it’s bad news that travels fast (especially online).

Strange then that a brand like VW / Audi can deliberately defraud their customers with an emissions defeat device and a few months later all is forgotten and they are back to the top of the sales charts.

Nowt so strange as folk.

[Maldini35]

ate one too said:

I'm guessing most people, me included, would like to see them succeed .

Sorry but having read your negative posts on every McLaren thread for the last few years you are being somewhat disingenuous.

It’s not the behaviour of a man who wants them to succeed.

It’s comparable to bullying passed off as ‘banter’.

Of course you are perfectly entitled to dislike a brand and their cars but best not to pretend otherwise.

Edited by Maldini35 on Saturday 16th May 20:25

[Export56]

I just cant see UK car companies competeting. Unless you are huge VW or have goverment funding , its hard to have the cash to compete. JLR, Jag cant afford to make big cars like the xj, LR are a quality fail. Mclaren have a terrible reputuation with suppliers and empolyers and I dont think there is any empathy to support them. The days of garage shed companies like TVR is over, it 100 millions to stay in the game nowadays

[Matty3]

Maldini35 said:

aelord said:

A brand that is very hard to feel any empathy for.

Funny really.
Some bad customer experiences and some disgruntled employees/suppliers and many write the brand off.

Forget that plenty of customers have nothing but good things to say and professional (credible) car journalists constantly rate their cars as the best drivers cars in their segments.
Just look at how many car of the year, best drivers car awards they’ve won over the last few years.
Not perfect (eg. engine tone) but nonetheless spectacularly thrilling things to throw around.

People who’ve never owned a McLaren are queuing up to put the boot in. Perhaps motivated by loyalty to their preferred brand - who knows?

I guess in the world we live in it’s bad news that travels fast (especially online).

Strange then that a brand like VW / Audi can deliberately defraud their customers with an emissions defeat device and a few months later all is forgotten and they are back to the top of the sales charts.

Nowt so strange as folk.

Amen to that - really strange that many of the same suspects turn up on any McL thread?

As an owner I have nothing but good to report on my Mac experience to date - so positive, in fact, that my next car purchase will be another one - hopefully later this year, but a bit like the car industry in general lots of uncertainty ahead.

[anonymous-user]

Export56 said:

I just cant see UK car companies competeting. Unless you are huge VW or have goverment funding , its hard to have the cash to compete. JLR, Jag cant afford to make big cars like the xj, LR are a quality fail. Mclaren have a terrible reputuation with suppliers and empolyers and I dont think there is any empathy to support them. The days of garage shed companies like TVR is over, it 100 millions to stay in the game nowadays

In some ways, EVs may actually be a boon to small volume manufacturers, because they are a lot simpler to develop, and a LOT less costly to homologate/certify (not having any tailpipe emissions or requiring any On Board Diagnostics) and relatively speaking, doing your own eMachine is a lot easier than doing your own Internal Combustion Engine, and of course, most of the parts are really built up of Off-The-Shelf components (battery cells, power silicon, fuses, contactors etc)

[OddCat]

JxJ Jr. said:

OddCat said:

Ron Dennis was upset that someone had changed a floor tile in the factory reception and it was a slightly different colour to the others...That obsession with perfection, and attention to detail, will be their USP...

If the organisation was obsessed with perfection and attention to detail it wouldn't have happened in the first place or if it did it would have already have been identified and resolved. It was a myth like the myth that pilots, divers and racing drivers use Swiss watches to perform their jobs.

Nope. Definitely real.
https://youtu.be/wuQvKuqYUk4

ETA 2:30 to 3:00

Edited by OddCat on Saturday 16th May 20:18

[FN2TypeR]

Just hamming it up for the cameras, surely?

Either way I like their cars. I could probably just, just about afford something at the lower end of the price range. I love the 540C but I appreciate that in the used market a 570S isn't much dearer and offers more performance but for some reason the 540C appeals to me more.

[Fittster]

Could they use the extra funding to design a better badge?

[anonymous-user]

650spider said:

For someone to say that it is a hateful firm that few would shed a tear if it was gone, is a total disrespect for the over 4000 UK employees and the ripple effect on the 000's of others involved that would lose their employment.

That 'someone' is of course me, and whilst you might not like it, all I've done is articulate what I know, backed by direct experience. Of course it obviously doesn't play to your somewhat blinkered agenda, but I've certainly not 'disrespected' anyone. Let me lay it out in very simple terms;

• I want McLaren to succeed, and indeed, for every other UK car maker to succeed. My livelihood depends on it.
• I would love McLaren to treat their suppliers and employees in a fair and equitable way.
• The Mclaren Group employs 3800 folk, or so, but many of those are employed in Racing and Applied. Automotive is the biggest division though.
• There are not 000's employed in activities dedicated to the McLaren supply chain, and many of those involved are are not in the UK anyway. Very few of those would become unemployed should McLaren go under.
• McLaren are a great product engineering company, but they have very limited capability when it comes to 'industrialising' those products through the end-to-end supply chain (from concept, through design, sourcing, production, retail & distribution, and end user experience). Unfortunately, they're mostly too arrogant to accept that, hence their prevailing challenges.
• Their products are (mostly) functionally stunning, but IMO have very limited 'character' (a subjective term of course), and they are hard to create and hold an emotional bond with, again, IMO. Discounts against list and retained values/used prices would tend to support this view. Again, and unfortunately, they're mostly too arrogant to accept that.

They have the core ingredients to be wonderfully successful, hence the investment support from Mumtalakat, Mansour Ojjeh, etc, but they badly need intervention from people who know how to run a business and not just engineer good product.

[StuntmanMike]

OddCat said:

JxJ Jr. said:

OddCat said:

Ron Dennis was upset that someone had changed a floor tile in the factory reception and it was a slightly different colour to the others...That obsession with perfection, and attention to detail, will be their USP...

If the organisation was obsessed with perfection and attention to detail it wouldn't have happened in the first place or if it did it would have already have been identified and resolved. It was a myth like the myth that pilots, divers and racing drivers use Swiss watches to perform their jobs.

Nope. Definitely real.
https://youtu.be/wuQvKuqYUk4

ETA 2:30 to 3:00

Edited by OddCat on Saturday 16th May 20:18

He’s right about tiles coming in batches though.
If you are tiling anything, buy extra in case of breakages down the line.

Edited by StuntmanMike on Saturday 16th May 20:58

[JxJ Jr.]

OddCat said:

JxJ Jr. said:

OddCat said:

Ron Dennis was upset that someone had changed a floor tile in the factory reception and it was a slightly different colour to the others...That obsession with perfection, and attention to detail, will be their USP...

If the organisation was obsessed with perfection and attention to detail it wouldn't have happened in the first place or if it did it would have already have been identified and resolved. It was a myth like the myth that pilots, divers and racing drivers use Swiss watches to perform their jobs.

Nope. Definitely real.
https://youtu.be/wuQvKuqYUk4

ETA 2:30 to 3:00

Edited by OddCat on Saturday 16th May 20:18

I don't mean the story was a myth, I mean the 'perfection', 'engineering excellence' all that kind of crap was a myth.

[EK993]

had ham said:

That 'someone' is of course me, and whilst you might not like it, all I've done is articulate what I know, backed by direct experience. Of course it obviously doesn't play to your somewhat blinkered agenda, but I've certainly not 'disrespected' anyone. Let me lay it out in very simple terms;

• I want McLaren to succeed, and indeed, for every other UK car maker to succeed. My livelihood depends on it.
• I would love McLaren to treat their suppliers and employees in a fair and equitable way.
• The Mclaren Group employs 3800 folk, or so, but many of those are employed in Racing and Applied. Automotive is the biggest division though.
• There are not 000's employed in activities dedicated to the McLaren supply chain, and many of those involved are are not in the UK anyway. Very few of those would become unemployed should McLaren go under.
• McLaren are a great product engineering company, but they have very limited capability when it comes to 'industrialising' those products through the end-to-end supply chain (from concept, through design, sourcing, production, retail & distribution, and end user experience). Unfortunately, they're mostly too arrogant to accept that, hence their prevailing challenges.
• Their products are (mostly) functionally stunning, but IMO have very limited 'character' (a subjective term of course), and they are hard to create and hold an emotional bond with, again, IMO. Discounts against list and retained values/used prices would tend to support this view. Again, and unfortunately, they're mostly too arrogant to accept that.

They have the core ingredients to be wonderfully successful, hence the investment support from Mumtalakat, Mansour Ojjeh, etc, but they badly need intervention from people who know how to run a business and not just engineer good product.

Very over dramatic

[SidewaysSi]

Yes, yes McLaren are wonderful. Only an idiot would think otherwise. Yada yada.

People obviously can't have different views/experiences.

[kilarney]

650spider said:

kilarney said:

Your worried arent you. The brand isnt viewed as sexy by me. Look like upmarket Lotus. The formula is in place to give the result , failure. Shame but plain to see.

No...honestly...i am not worried. Its just a car i have sat on the driveway.

Strange comment for you to make but fair enough.

It would be nice to see a U.K based supercar manufacturer that has around 4000 employees not fail.

In general McLaren is seen as 'sexy' to investors, business partners and car buyers due to its F1 / motorsport connection just like Ferrari, Porsche etc....again fair play to you and how you see it.

Viewing McLaren as an upmarket Lotus is not an insult in my opinion.

My comments are probably born of my age and background. Firstly I like Lotus as much as the next man Im less effusive about Mclaren road cars. I admire them for ruthless efficiency but more passion in my blender Im afraid.

Firstly my Lotus reference is more aligned to the marketing and viability. Thing is Lotus had an F1 heritage and actually a leader who was the Engineer. However for all this its nearly always been a commercial disaster. This is what I mean when I see the future for mclaren they look similar.

All these variations of the same thing mean one product and no car company can survive on one product and neither can the dealer network. Witness Alfa Romeo and Fiat. Hopeless. Lamborghini, Maserati all trying and look how long they have been at it.

So the Engineer,s have gone and the bean counters are in, its inevitable but unfortunately having worked at a senior level interacting with board members in a bigger outfit than Mclaren its a problem for a business selling a commercially flaky passion not a commodity.

When the business plan gets signed off, the top of the house believe it because they want it to happen and even if they dont the owners told them how it is and the senior managers go along with it for self preservation and hope it will be alright. Why ? because its a finance led company.

So its all based on boundless optimism, growth and dividends with little or no consideration of the rainy day which always comes.

Once the founding figure head is gone Ron Dennis, Branson, Chapman the problems start unless its a business that can make money despite itself like BMW and VW group companies or Ferrari and its heritage.

Dont get me wrong I cant stand VW for how they behave and the dishonesty but I guess they were the ones that got caught. Yet I own lots of the products so the product wins through is the saving grace but its success is born of being well funded and a good commodity like BMW.

How would I make Mclaren succeed ? Not sure I could but almost certainly the best start would be to take the EV fight to Tesla and use the technology advantage in Mclaren as yet untapped in EV and apply it to new commodity vehicles then move the current line up to low volume halo cars.

Oh and put a true petrolhead at the top who is also a good business man AND let them run it.

Yes I want Mclaren to succeed if only to put German brands in there place.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I do often wonder how it would all have turned out had Ron won the battle.

[ate one too]

Maldini35 said:

ate one too said:

I'm guessing most people, me included, would like to see them succeed .

Sorry but having read your negative posts on every McLaren thread for the last few years you are being somewhat disingenuous.

It’s not the behaviour of a man who wants them to succeed.

It’s comparable to bullying passed off as ‘banter’.

Of course you are perfectly entitled to dislike a brand and their cars but best not to pretend otherwise.

Edited by Maldini35 on Saturday 16th May 20:25

No pretence here ...

I had my name down on a 570 GT before it became available and after having an extensive test drive in both a 570 Spider and a 720 S I was mightily disappointed in both cars for several reasons already posted here.

It is possible to dislike certain things without wishing ill on the manufacturer / supplier / etc.

For example ...

I don't like what has happened to football in the UK in the past 20 years but I wouldn't wish the Premier League et al to go out of business.

I also don't like Dyson vacuum cleaners having owned one a few years ago ... poorly designed and cheaply made from sub-standard plastics but I'm pleased to see James Dyson and his company is a success.

Edited by ate one too on Sunday 17th May 10:30

[chelme]

Cold said:

EK993 said:

It’s “group” mentality

It really isn't. I'm quite capable of thinking for myself.

If I think that they all look alike and I have real difficulty in differentiating the various models then that's what I think regardless of what others may opine.

If I think that the one-tub-fits-all construction method is lazy and means the end result is very samey then that's down to my own thoughts.

If I think that using the same engine over and again is similar to how VAG operates and means a similarly predictable product range, then it's my thinking which has made that conclusion.

If I think that the numerous reports of questionable build quality issues and their subsequent effect on retained monetary value are a concern to any potential buyer on the used market then those are my own thoughts.

Other people may well have reached the same conclusions, but none have had a collective group-think to do so. And it's the independence of these thoughts and their respective agreement which should be of concern to McLaren.

+1. Well put. It seems some owners are feeling a little upset, however the group behaviour point is not entirely lacking in truth.

There are some who jump on the bandwagon, certainly, however, the core critical reasons/observations relating to the brand as outlined are not invalid either.

Personally, the cars do not attract me for all the reasons summarised above. For £150k + there are other cars that I'd pick over a McLaren because for me they'd meet the brief more completely and "specialness" is a big part of it.

[650spider]

Thanks to had ham and kilarney to making longer posts explaining their earlier posts

I am glad that ultimately you guys don't want to see McLaren fail also.

I am not a fanboi, or whatever that is, and i certainly don't have an agenda as i was also accused of.

What i do have is a business, and whilst i feel confident we shall be fine in the current climate, at no point have i ever been happy to see any business fail including competitors as i usually know them or whom work for them, and that is how i feel about McLaren.

I genuinely want them to survive for the direct employees, the subcontractors like Mary the cleaner and her 75 colleagues that are based at Woking, Mike based at Riccardo making the engines and his near 3000 colleagues and all the others that would have huge redundancies or close if McLaren failed....thats not to mention the McLaren dealer franchises and the huge amount of people involved in that also.

It certainly would not be 'just' 3800 jobs go; the ripple would affect 000's.

I would also like McLaren to survive as its a very serious rival to the big 3 of Ferrari, Porsche and Lambo and keeps them on their toes.

Things go wrong with the cars, at dealerships and also at the levels had ham mentions, but in my experience that is not unique to McLaren, but if you read the forums or can somehow tolerate more than 30 secs of a jaymm 'masterpiece', you would think that is is solely a McLaren issue ( now there is someone with an 'agenda' ).

The other big 3 have their own problems of engine fires, engine failures, suspension turret failures, multiple car fires, very expensive servicing, parts and expensive extended warranties...all of that is part of the entry fee with them but with McLaren it is big news.

Every car they put out the door has a carbon tub which the other 3 would love to have the ability to do but posters have a go about that, the engines and drivetrains are proven to be very strong and powerful enough to be more than a quicker than the other 3, so why change that?

Poor sound? I have an MSO exhaust and i am more than happy how it sounds; as i mentioned before i came from a Ferrari with a level 3 capristo and still have a 600Bhp AMG that sounds like a spitfire...McLarens are all turbocharged so sound will be an issue, but before you know it the next gen of these manufacturers shall be electric...best get used to diminishing sound.

Depreciation? A large part of the Big 4 owners have been introduced into buying these cars in the last 8 years and thought it was normal to buy a 'supercar' and either make money, run for a year with no loss or even lose £20k...shock horror.

Well, as most can see, McLaren may of been the 1st ones to suffer stiff depreciation ( after a period of strong values ), but the other 3 are catching up fast. Try offloading that Pista, Performante or GT3 that you have tucked away in the garage...the collecting cars platform shows they are all in the same boat now. I am sure some Porsche bore shall show up talking about GT3RS values shortly explaining why they are immune and turn a McLaren thread into a Porsche value thread.

This is just how i currently view it and i am more than delighted for others to put me right and backing up their views with facts or personal experience...would be even better if it didn't descend into name calling or posters belittling each other as it seems to have turned into on most pistonhead threads.