RE: All-electric Caterham Seven promised
Discussion
I think if they do go electric (and keep the price down) it will be good for them. They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I just hope they keep prices reasonable as over the last 10 years their prices have gone way too high.
I just hope they keep prices reasonable as over the last 10 years their prices have gone way too high.
red_slr said:
If they are going down the EU route with cameras / radar avoidance etc then are they also going ABS and airbags?
I always thought low volume was exempt ?
If low volume production will be exempt from the future ruling that no strictly ICE cars can be sold, they might still be in a tough spot because the engines they will be using may no longer be produced, or at a significantly lower volume. Since they don't make their own.I always thought low volume was exempt ?
Murph7355 said:
They either do something like this or the company dies/becomes a spares provider/restorer.
They need to be innovative with it IMO. Motors and batteries instead of engines, gearboxes and diffs gives a lot of scope. Are EVs allowed to use regen braking only? Do away with old school brakes...perhaps go single pedal?
Batteries have plenty of scope for siting. I wonder if something could be done to allow battery packs to be dropped out really easily, say at a track. Range for road use isn't really a big deal. Long stints in 7s aren't what they're about. But track use will chew the battery quickly. If you could trailer a couple of spares with the car for a quick 10min swap....recharging whilst out on track.
Part of me thinks, like snotrag, that if they're going down this route, it may be an opportunity missed not to move away from the shape/dimensions and really leverage the flexibility an EV drivetrain could present - still tiny and as low weight as possible, but a different shape.
Will be interesting to see what they make of it. I wonder if they're working with Sheffield Uni on theirs?
Yep, that’s how I see it, it’s do or die.They need to be innovative with it IMO. Motors and batteries instead of engines, gearboxes and diffs gives a lot of scope. Are EVs allowed to use regen braking only? Do away with old school brakes...perhaps go single pedal?
Batteries have plenty of scope for siting. I wonder if something could be done to allow battery packs to be dropped out really easily, say at a track. Range for road use isn't really a big deal. Long stints in 7s aren't what they're about. But track use will chew the battery quickly. If you could trailer a couple of spares with the car for a quick 10min swap....recharging whilst out on track.
Part of me thinks, like snotrag, that if they're going down this route, it may be an opportunity missed not to move away from the shape/dimensions and really leverage the flexibility an EV drivetrain could present - still tiny and as low weight as possible, but a different shape.
Will be interesting to see what they make of it. I wonder if they're working with Sheffield Uni on theirs?
Their traditional potential pool of customers must be rapidly shrinking. They have to try something. I’m not sure it will work though.
rampageturke said:
red_slr said:
If they are going down the EU route with cameras / radar avoidance etc then are they also going ABS and airbags?
I always thought low volume was exempt ?
If low volume production will be exempt from the future ruling that no strictly ICE cars can be sold, they might still be in a tough spot because the engines they will be using may no longer be produced, or at a significantly lower volume. Since they don't make their own.I always thought low volume was exempt ?
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I think you're missing the point about what these types of cars are all about. I thought this thread would go on for a while! 
I've had my Caterham for about 8 years, since I was 28, so I'm probably still half the age of most Caterham owners.
I for one look forward to this! I think the chassis would benefit from quite a bit of a refresh to fit the batteries in (that old transmission tunnel could finally go!). I think it's pretty interesting since the move to full electric does away with so many bulky and unreliable components. I would hope they look at this as the next evolution of the chassis rather than trying to just bung everything into an S3.
I would definitely miss the pops and bangs, but we're all going to need to accept that the ICE is not long for this world, and eventually we have to move on.
One bonus would be my feet wouldn't get cooked as much on trackdays as no matter how hot those batteries get, they're not going to compare to an exhaust manifold mounted a foot in front of the pedal box!
I've had my Caterham for about 8 years, since I was 28, so I'm probably still half the age of most Caterham owners.
I for one look forward to this! I think the chassis would benefit from quite a bit of a refresh to fit the batteries in (that old transmission tunnel could finally go!). I think it's pretty interesting since the move to full electric does away with so many bulky and unreliable components. I would hope they look at this as the next evolution of the chassis rather than trying to just bung everything into an S3.
I would definitely miss the pops and bangs, but we're all going to need to accept that the ICE is not long for this world, and eventually we have to move on.
One bonus would be my feet wouldn't get cooked as much on trackdays as no matter how hot those batteries get, they're not going to compare to an exhaust manifold mounted a foot in front of the pedal box!
PH User said:
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I think you're missing the point about what these types of cars are all about. red_slr said:
PH User said:
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I think you're missing the point about what these types of cars are all about. red_slr said:
I think if they do go electric (and keep the price down) it will be good for them. They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I just hope they keep prices reasonable as over the last 10 years their prices have gone way too high.
Which Caterham is getting 'blown into the weeds' by which Golf?I just hope they keep prices reasonable as over the last 10 years their prices have gone way too high.
A Caterham is the all about enjoying the feel of driving in a lightweight car.
A Golf (and I have an R and GTI) is bloated, heavy and blunt by comparison.
On a greasy wet road the Golf R will be more sure-footed. On a nice sunny day morning blast the Caterham would be the one to pick.
And yes I've had MX5 Mk1, Elise Mk1 Caterham and 911s so have plenty of seat time to form my views.
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
Comparing apples and oranges there.On a bumpy b road with bad visibility, a decent hot hatch is always going to be faster. Half the trouble in a 7 is that you're so low it's hard to see over crests to make overtakes that you'd see very easily in a Golf.
On a well surfaced road though, most other cars just don't come close. I've had people in front of my clearly work hard to try and keep me behind them - braking hard, full throttle out of corners, thinking that I'm driving hard to keep up..... where the reality is I'm just pootling along and haven't even touched the brake for 5 minutes. A 7 at full chat is an amazing thing to drive, but it's also hard work and not something you can really do on the road very often - and that's even in a fairly slow one. I don't see a switch to EV changing that to be honest.
framerateuk said:
On a bumpy b road with bad visibility, a decent hot hatch is always going to be faster. Half the trouble in a 7 is that you're so low it's hard to see over crests to make overtakes that you'd see very easily in a Golf.
And the other half, of course, is that the Caterham is still trying to muddle through with a rear suspension arrangement that Chapman abandoned as obsolete in the late 1950's - any number of its IRS equipped competitors do a much better job in such circumstances - but I probably shouldn't mention that, as I've upset Si quite enough already. 
The problem with an EV Caterham is that is is basically trying to square a circle!
What is a Caterham? Seriously think about it?
A Caterham is (IMO) the result of asking the question many years ago now "how can we make a fun, fast car,but out of cheap / cooking bits". A Caterham is really the least complex, least expensive way of originally turning the powertrain of an old Ford Family into something much more fun and much faster. Si it squeezes a couple of (small) people down the sides of a small longituidinal 4 cyl ICE, and sends power backwards to a beam axle tw'ixt back wheels. The front end is basically a rehashed load of simply parts, a manual rack, some uprights and well, that's about it.
Now over the years, more and more powerful engines have been stuffed into them, and the rear suspension changed to using jsut a ford Diff and a custom de-dion, but broadly, the recipe has remained the same.
However, as many other manufacturers have found, a typical EV powertrain simply does not comfortably sit in a chassis/platform designed for an ICE powertrain. Yes, yes, you can make it fit, but its compromise city, and the end result is not actuall yvery good.
If Caterham want to go EV, then imo, they should buy Lotus's old Elise chassis and rebody that. A far better option all round. The Classic Caterham can keep it's ICE, and if necessary, become a Track only model should it ever become illegal for road use (which tbh, i'm not sure it will, because the volumes are so low no .gov is going to care, although you probably won't be able to drive it into town centres, but that's no great loss for such a car really)
What is a Caterham? Seriously think about it?
A Caterham is (IMO) the result of asking the question many years ago now "how can we make a fun, fast car,but out of cheap / cooking bits". A Caterham is really the least complex, least expensive way of originally turning the powertrain of an old Ford Family into something much more fun and much faster. Si it squeezes a couple of (small) people down the sides of a small longituidinal 4 cyl ICE, and sends power backwards to a beam axle tw'ixt back wheels. The front end is basically a rehashed load of simply parts, a manual rack, some uprights and well, that's about it.
Now over the years, more and more powerful engines have been stuffed into them, and the rear suspension changed to using jsut a ford Diff and a custom de-dion, but broadly, the recipe has remained the same.
However, as many other manufacturers have found, a typical EV powertrain simply does not comfortably sit in a chassis/platform designed for an ICE powertrain. Yes, yes, you can make it fit, but its compromise city, and the end result is not actuall yvery good.
If Caterham want to go EV, then imo, they should buy Lotus's old Elise chassis and rebody that. A far better option all round. The Classic Caterham can keep it's ICE, and if necessary, become a Track only model should it ever become illegal for road use (which tbh, i'm not sure it will, because the volumes are so low no .gov is going to care, although you probably won't be able to drive it into town centres, but that's no great loss for such a car really)
Equus said:
And the other half, of course, is that the Caterham is still trying to muddle through with a rear suspension arrangement that Chapman abandoned as obsolete in the late 1950's
True enough, but then my Megane 280 has a torsion beam rear end, which on paper isn't as sophisticated as the multi link suspension on other hatches and it's no less fun to drive and certainly doesn't suffer for it. In fact I found the old 250 (which had the same setup) far more nimble than it's competitors of the day with the multi-link setup while out on track.I am a little surprised that the rear end of the CSR didn't eventually end up in the more recent S3s.
PH User said:
red_slr said:
PH User said:
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I think you're missing the point about what these types of cars are all about. 0-60 of c.5 seconds (claimed, IME mid 5s at best). 0-100 of c14 sec and 1/4 mile of maybe high 13s? Vmax c.120mph.
Track times, Ring maybe close to 9 min for the base spec cars? Only the top of the range cars break into 7s.
Golf R. 0-60 c.4.5. 0-100 10 sec. 1/4 mile 12.4ish. Vmax 155 limited/170 without.
Track times, Ring time 7.51.
What I am getting at is, when I bought my first Caterham (SL1600) it was point to point one of the fastest cars on the road... and cost £21k. 6 speed, big brakes, LSD, lots of carbon bla. Yeah you could get an SLR or R500 for even more go for a chunk more cash but the SL1600 was pretty damn good for the money and pace per £.
That was about peak Caterham IMHO. 1998-2005. After that they started to lose their way. IMVHO.
red_slr said:
PH User said:
red_slr said:
PH User said:
red_slr said:
They have lost a lot of ground over the last 10 years or so in the performance stakes and when your £40k caterham is getting blown into the weeds by a VW Golf its time for them to step up their game.
I think you're missing the point about what these types of cars are all about. 0-60 of c.5 seconds (claimed, IME mid 5s at best). 0-100 of c14 sec and 1/4 mile of maybe high 13s? Vmax c.120mph.
Track times, Ring maybe close to 9 min for the base spec cars? Only the top of the range cars break into 7s.
Golf R. 0-60 c.4.5. 0-100 10 sec. 1/4 mile 12.4ish. Vmax 155 limited/170 without.
Track times, Ring time 7.51.
What I am getting at is, when I bought my first Caterham (SL1600) it was point to point one of the fastest cars on the road... and cost £21k. 6 speed, big brakes, LSD, lots of carbon bla. Yeah you could get an SLR or R500 for even more go for a chunk more cash but the SL1600 was pretty damn good for the money and pace per £.
That was about peak Caterham IMHO. 1998-2005. After that they started to lose their way. IMVHO.
But to compare a 7 type car to a Golf is rather missing the point.
red_slr said:
Base models with factory build and a few options you are looking at 40k. I saw a 1600SV for £45k at Oakmere at the weekend.
0-60 of c.5 seconds (claimed, IME mid 5s at best). 0-100 of c14 sec and 1/4 mile of maybe high 13s? Vmax c.120mph.
Track times, Ring maybe close to 9 min for the base spec cars? Only the top of the range cars break into 7s.
Golf R. 0-60 c.4.5. 0-100 10 sec. 1/4 mile 12.4ish. Vmax 155 limited/170 without.
Track times, Ring time 7.51.
What I am getting at is, when I bought my first Caterham (SL1600) it was point to point one of the fastest cars on the road... and cost £21k. 6 speed, big brakes, LSD, lots of carbon bla. Yeah you could get an SLR or R500 for even more go for a chunk more cash but the SL1600 was pretty damn good for the money and pace per £.
That was about peak Caterham IMHO. 1998-2005. After that they started to lose their way. IMVHO.
You can totally get a 420R for 38k and that includes a factory build option0-60 of c.5 seconds (claimed, IME mid 5s at best). 0-100 of c14 sec and 1/4 mile of maybe high 13s? Vmax c.120mph.
Track times, Ring maybe close to 9 min for the base spec cars? Only the top of the range cars break into 7s.
Golf R. 0-60 c.4.5. 0-100 10 sec. 1/4 mile 12.4ish. Vmax 155 limited/170 without.
Track times, Ring time 7.51.
What I am getting at is, when I bought my first Caterham (SL1600) it was point to point one of the fastest cars on the road... and cost £21k. 6 speed, big brakes, LSD, lots of carbon bla. Yeah you could get an SLR or R500 for even more go for a chunk more cash but the SL1600 was pretty damn good for the money and pace per £.
That was about peak Caterham IMHO. 1998-2005. After that they started to lose their way. IMVHO.
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