End of petrol and hybrid
Discussion
marky911 said:
Buy an ICE car carefully and maintain it and we are definitely not guaranteed a failure to take it off the road. Could happen but probably won’t.
Without wanting to step into what might turn into well-trodden spat ground ...Edited by marky911 on Friday 14th February 01:25
Outliers of 22 year old, 200k Volvos are rare, but still valid, as are 500k mile EVs.
But, most regular folks wouldn’t have the mechanical sympathy or pro-active service and care - so many 15 year old appliance cars are knackered, bodged or rotten, fall into shed territory and often into the hands of those who do no service or work on them. Consequently they slide quite quickly into scrappage and are dead by age 15.
If you took the TCO over those 15 years it would be interesting to see the cost difference. This is just a thought experiment so don’t take it too literally. Or flame me, pls.
ICE, say 20k purchase, 150k miles at 40mpg = 23k fuel, 15 years of RFL and servicing, say 15k = 58k
EV, say 30k purchase, 150k miles = £4k leccy, 15 years of RFL and servicing, say £3k = £37k
Makes for a (guessed at numbers) compelling argument. And that assumes leccy cars are 50% more expensive like for like. EV cars will, at some point, have the same buy price as ICE, reducing the cost by (in this example) by 10k - making EV cars possibly cost less than half the price of an ICE.
This doesn’t help the “old cheap cars” discussion but does say a lot about the disruption that EVs offer.
Edited by MrOrange on Friday 14th February 02:34
RobDickinson said:
Cold said:
When are they going to make EV cars that aren't either shopping cars, salesmen cars or £2m hypercars?
None of those appeal.
What do you think is missing?None of those appeal.
I see VW are contemplating an Elise/MR2 type of thingy which a step in the right direction, but cars are more than mere transport to me. EVs so far seem to be just a way of getting around.
Cold said:
RobDickinson said:
Cold said:
When are they going to make EV cars that aren't either shopping cars, salesmen cars or £2m hypercars?
None of those appeal.
What do you think is missing?None of those appeal.
I see VW are contemplating an Elise/MR2 type of thingy which a step in the right direction, but cars are more than mere transport to me. EVs so far seem to be just a way of getting around.
Shame aston cancelled their first EV..
Taycan and tesla roadster should be in astons space though, assume the Audi etron gt etc will be similar.
Tesla already made one roadster but its not exactly common (based on the elise).
Most cars are just ways of getting around, EVs are primarily about solving transport issues, the weekend toys will come because it will be easy with an ev platform.
Cold said:
RobDickinson said:
Cold said:
When are they going to make EV cars that aren't either shopping cars, salesmen cars or £2m hypercars?
None of those appeal.
What do you think is missing?None of those appeal.
I see VW are contemplating an Elise/MR2 type of thingy which a step in the right direction, but cars are more than mere transport to me. EVs so far seem to be just a way of getting around.
Lazadude said:
Baldchap said:
For the overwhelming majority of people doing the overwhelming majority or journeys, it's feasible right now.
London based thinking, of everyone drives around towns but the majority of people who do these journeys dont have private/off road parking to be able to charge the things. And that the batteries die/need replacement within years.Nevermind that we don't have the electrical grid to support it - at this exact moment were at 36/45MW of use. Live UK Elec Status
There's only 1 more power station being made at the moment (another at Hinkley) and that isn't enough to sustain converting all vehicles to electric. It takes a good 10+ years to build a new power station, especially a nuclear one because of unfounded public fear. Hinkley point C was first started being looked at in 2010 and won't be producing grid power until 2025!
It really isn't feasible for the majority, even though their "journey profile" fits.
SteveTTT said:
Lazadude said:
Baldchap said:
For the overwhelming majority of people doing the overwhelming majority or journeys, it's feasible right now.
London based thinking, of everyone drives around towns but the majority of people who do these journeys dont have private/off road parking to be able to charge the things. And that the batteries die/need replacement within years.Nevermind that we don't have the electrical grid to support it - at this exact moment were at 36/45MW of use. Live UK Elec Status
There's only 1 more power station being made at the moment (another at Hinkley) and that isn't enough to sustain converting all vehicles to electric. It takes a good 10+ years to build a new power station, especially a nuclear one because of unfounded public fear. Hinkley point C was first started being looked at in 2010 and won't be producing grid power until 2025!
It really isn't feasible for the majority, even though their "journey profile" fits.
ks?jagnet said:
BricktopST205 said:
What is the highest peak demand the UK is capable of delivering?
The national grid's estimate of a 10% increase in demand from EVs relies on the majority of owners using smart charging at home. Hence the "we think" caveat. Without smart charging they describe meeting the additional demand as "challenging".I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
Which ever way you look at it we use 325TWh of electricity per year. To replace all fuel use tomorrow will need 140TWh to be produced to meet demand. That's a 43 % electricity increase per year. That's a massive jump whether you believe the grid can handle it or not.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 14th February 09:41
BricktopST205 said:
Nothing like a bit of spin is there. Who here fills up petrol "Smartly"? Very few I would imagine. That is the fantastic nature of it. You just wait till you are low and fill up.
I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
applying fossil fuel refilling mentality to EVs I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
you will wake with a full charge, and rapid chargers will be available on the way
SteveTTT said:
Lazadude said:
Baldchap said:
For the overwhelming majority of people doing the overwhelming majority or journeys, it's feasible right now.
London based thinking, of everyone drives around towns but the majority of people who do these journeys dont have private/off road parking to be able to charge the things. And that the batteries die/need replacement within years.Nevermind that we don't have the electrical grid to support it - at this exact moment were at 36/45MW of use. Live UK Elec Status
There's only 1 more power station being made at the moment (another at Hinkley) and that isn't enough to sustain converting all vehicles to electric. It takes a good 10+ years to build a new power station, especially a nuclear one because of unfounded public fear. Hinkley point C was first started being looked at in 2010 and won't be producing grid power until 2025!
It really isn't feasible for the majority, even though their "journey profile" fits.
Did you just agree with someone that:
a) Can't use units of power properly. MW, really?
b) Thinks the only Powerstation being built in the whole.of the UK is a nuclear power station.
c) clings onto the idea that batteries only last a few years
This thread really is a revolving door of ignorance.
Dave Hedgehog said:
BricktopST205 said:
Nothing like a bit of spin is there. Who here fills up petrol "Smartly"? Very few I would imagine. That is the fantastic nature of it. You just wait till you are low and fill up.
I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
applying fossil fuel refilling mentality to EVs I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
you will wake with a full charge, and rapid chargers will be available on the way
Also do you think everyone will be able to afford to keep their car constantly topped up and even forget to plug it in (I would hope wireless charging would become a possibility in the future).
Myself I always forget to plug my weekend car into the trickle charger as is.
You're also living with the mentality that people like yourself and myself have driveways to leave their cars on. Millions of people do not have this luxury. How are those cars going to be charged smartly when they are on the street. You only have to look at our telecoms to see how archaic it is and the trouble to get anything done underground.
Also using the above as an example when the kids break up Dover is heaving with holiday makers. Would the grid simply turn around and go nope? Demand is too high.
Smart charging is a buzzword for saying lack of flexibility.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 14th February 10:02
MrOrange said:
You sound an ideal, in fact almost perfect, candidate for an EV. I can see why you’re on this thread.
1,000 miles a month is about 300kWh of charge required, or about 10 hours of charge per week on a boggo home charger - you could do that on the Monday when you’re working from home. And 128 miles today is a cake walk in all but the smallest capacity city EV cars. And a monthly fuel bill of less than £50, lots and lots to like.
Think how much BIK you’d save, cheaper fuel costs, less servicing, never mind the good for the environment and helping save the planet. Go on, go for it - you know you want to.
But when I go out I usually end up doing around 300 miles per day, which is not feasible and adds lots of time to my already long journeys. 1,000 miles a month is about 300kWh of charge required, or about 10 hours of charge per week on a boggo home charger - you could do that on the Monday when you’re working from home. And 128 miles today is a cake walk in all but the smallest capacity city EV cars. And a monthly fuel bill of less than £50, lots and lots to like.
Think how much BIK you’d save, cheaper fuel costs, less servicing, never mind the good for the environment and helping save the planet. Go on, go for it - you know you want to.
What about my track days? (10-12 per year)
What about my european trips?
I have 2 cars one I lease for around £190 a month (Fiesta), one owned outright (M135i, cost me £17k). I'm not a BIK user and I don't care about servicing costs.
I have ZERO interest in having an EV car. unless I can lease one for around £200 a month and have a fast charger installed at home by the company, and that EV has a range of at least 200 real world miles.
Edited by xjay1337 on Friday 14th February 10:03
BricktopST205 said:
Rapid chargers. I can drive from my home and into the middle of Germany without stopping at the moment!
Also do you think everyone will be able to afford to keep their car constantly topped up and even forget to plug it in (I would hope wireless charging would become a possibility in the future).
Myself I always forget to plug my weekend car into the trickle charger as is.
Also using the above as an example when the kids break up Dover is heaving with holiday makers. Would the grid simply turn around and go nope? Demand is too high.
afford to keep topping up?? That's like saying i cant afford to put £10 of petrol in every night, but i can put £70 in once a week. The frequency of topping up has no impact on cost, the mileage you cover will. Being topped up means you will always have optimum range available at the start of each day.Also do you think everyone will be able to afford to keep their car constantly topped up and even forget to plug it in (I would hope wireless charging would become a possibility in the future).
Myself I always forget to plug my weekend car into the trickle charger as is.
Also using the above as an example when the kids break up Dover is heaving with holiday makers. Would the grid simply turn around and go nope? Demand is too high.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 14th February 09:50
99% of people dont drive to Germany regularly
f
kwits will forget to plug in, but the same fkwits also forget to fill up with fossil fuel and run out on the road, 800k fkwits a year apparentlyhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3212222/M...
The grid will plan for peak load periods for holiday travel in the exact same way they plan now for everyone putting the kettle on at halftime of the world cup final etc. Its what they do, charging infrastructure will also develop to match need
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 14th February 10:07
xjay1337 said:
But when I go out I usually end up doing around 300 miles per day, which is not feasible and adds lots of time to my already long journeys.
What about my track days? (10-12 per year)
What about my european trips?
I have 2 cars one I lease for around £190 a month (Fiesta), one owned outright (M135i, cost me £17k). I'm not a BIK user and I don't care about servicing costs.
I have ZERO interest in having an EV car. unless I can lease one for around £200 a month and have a fast charger installed at home by the company, and that EV has a range of at least 200 real world miles.
So, the best thing for you will to be to buy one of the last new ICE cars for sale in 2035, and run it for as long as possible. Problem solved!What about my track days? (10-12 per year)
What about my european trips?
I have 2 cars one I lease for around £190 a month (Fiesta), one owned outright (M135i, cost me £17k). I'm not a BIK user and I don't care about servicing costs.
I have ZERO interest in having an EV car. unless I can lease one for around £200 a month and have a fast charger installed at home by the company, and that EV has a range of at least 200 real world miles.
Edited by xjay1337 on Friday 14th February 10:03
BricktopST205 said:
jagnet said:
BricktopST205 said:
What is the highest peak demand the UK is capable of delivering?
The national grid's estimate of a 10% increase in demand from EVs relies on the majority of owners using smart charging at home. Hence the "we think" caveat. Without smart charging they describe meeting the additional demand as "challenging".I can imagine it now I need to charge my car to get the Chunnel to France only to get told I cannot charge now due to smart charging.
xjay1337 said:
MrOrange said:
You sound an ideal, in fact almost perfect, candidate for an EV. I can see why you’re on this thread.
1,000 miles a month is about 300kWh of charge required, or about 10 hours of charge per week on a boggo home charger - you could do that on the Monday when you’re working from home. And 128 miles today is a cake walk in all but the smallest capacity city EV cars. And a monthly fuel bill of less than £50, lots and lots to like.
Think how much BIK you’d save, cheaper fuel costs, less servicing, never mind the good for the environment and helping save the planet. Go on, go for it - you know you want to.
But when I go out I usually end up doing around 300 miles per day, which is not1,000 miles a month is about 300kWh of charge required, or about 10 hours of charge per week on a boggo home charger - you could do that on the Monday when you’re working from home. And 128 miles today is a cake walk in all but the smallest capacity city EV cars. And a monthly fuel bill of less than £50, lots and lots to like.
Think how much BIK you’d save, cheaper fuel costs, less servicing, never mind the good for the environment and helping save the planet. Go on, go for it - you know you want to.
What about my track days? (10-12 per year)
What about my european trips?
I have 2 cars one I lease for around £190 a month (Fiesta), one owned outright (M135i, cost me £17k). I'm not a BIK user and I don't care about servicing costs.
I have ZERO interest in having an EV car. unless I can lease one for around £200 a month and have a fast charger installed at home by the company, and that EV has a range of at least 200 real world miles.
People always use that caveat of "well you stop anyway" but normally myself and my wife rotate driving and get it done in around 18 hours with just fuel stops lasting 5 minutes.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 14th February 10:16
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