RE: Lotus Poised To 'Twist Key' On Esprit's New V8
Discussion
Bash Brannigan said:
Frankly if you look at the blinkered arrogance of many car producers who think that they have a realistic chance against large companies then yes, I bloody do think that. Given your comments on other people's posts then I can only assume that you are taking these sceptical ideas somewhat personally.
The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?
Good grief my arse.
who was ever going to buy an evora though? Surely its too expensive for most people, and if you have the money you can get a 2nd hand proper sports car like a porsche/r8/gallardo etc? I was under the impression that many feel the elise is just a track toy for people with a large disposable income. This new car sits in the price point of new r8 spyder/Aston, yet it looks like it will destroy them in performance and aggressive styling, and its a supercar that doesn't cost the earth. I can see msyelf buying one if i have the money, but i would never buy the elise or evora even though i think they're both great cars.The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?
Good grief my arse.
Bash Brannigan said:
Frankly if you look at the blinkered arrogance of many car producers who think that they have a realistic chance against large companies then yes, I bloody do think that. Given your comments on other people's posts then I can only assume that you are taking these sceptical ideas somewhat personally.
The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?
Good grief my arse.
A luxury conglomerate? I'd rather buy my sports car from a sportscar manufacturer please. Lotus is changing its game, they aren't trying to sell the new cars to their existing customers and have expressly stated that. Forgive me for supporting and being a little bit excited about the continued rebirth of one of my favourite motoring manufacturers, a company that was almost core to Pistonheads ideals when I first came to this site.The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?
Good grief my arse.
I don't think Lotus are particularly interested in shifting a mass market number of cars either, I would be surprised if they are disappointed by sales of the Elise over the years, sales of the Evora are disappointing because it is such a great car but appears to be overlooked by everyone. As for being too expensive, have you seen the price of the BMW 6 series, makes the Evora look a bargain!
I for one, want to be optimistic.
In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.
Just a shame it's only Porsche retaining the manual gearbox though
Didn't Lotus say their full range would be DSG? Sad gits.
Dave
In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.
Just a shame it's only Porsche retaining the manual gearbox though
Didn't Lotus say their full range would be DSG? Sad gits.
Dave
SWoll said:
I still remember my dad telling me that Lotus stood for Loads Of Trouble Usually Serious. Difficult to get away from that kind of reputation, whether fair or not.
Fix Or Repair DailyFix It Again Toni
etc.
People don't appreciate how reliable modern cars are - most of them used to deserve that kind of backronym.
Provided this isn't ambition vaulting over ability, I think the proposals are good news. I've always been sceptical of the strategy for the Elise, but the other cars represent new ground rather than an abandonment of current buyers.
Mullah said:
who was ever going to buy an evora though? Surely its too expensive for most people, and if you have the money you can get a 2nd hand proper sports car like a porsche/r8/gallardo etc? I was under the impression that many feel the elise is just a track toy for people with a large disposable income. This new car sits in the price point of new r8 spyder/Aston, yet it looks like it will destroy them in performance and aggressive styling, and its a supercar that doesn't cost the earth. I can see msyelf buying one if i have the money, but i would never buy the elise or evora even though i think they're both great cars.
Could argue the definition of "proper sportscar" there with you...2 of the examples you chose there have 4wd and the other is a brand?..as a drivers car the Evora can more than hold it's own, just go and read a couple of reviews.
Mr Whippy said:
In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.
Dave
It IS essential when your main competitors , Mercedes and Audi, are using FI and the customers care about MPG and emission's and all the jazz..can't compare BMW with Ferrari and Lotus.Dave
I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
Gaz. said:
SWoll said:
I dont see any connection between new Lotus and TVR personally other than them being made in Britain and having a reputation for unreliability.
There's some connection here if you want to get into the psychobabble of it all:Both marques have fiercely loyal fans & owners (former & current), both marques absolutely dripping with passion for their cause and now Lotus is following TVR's business model of cutting ties with their traditional buyers & fan base, making their own engines, chasing a different owner demographic & market segment etc. One difference is that TVR moved one rung of the ladder up the table, where as Lotus have doubled the price and operating in an entirely different sphere.
I really hope it works out
Thats about as close as any UK manufacturer had got to being a Ferrari. I can't think of any other british sports car manufacturer making their own engine at that time. It propelled TVR above any other sports car name in the country. The finish obviously wasn't going to be Ferrari, but at least it had thrown off its kit car roots, in the way that cars using off the shelf engines were struggling to do.
Bolting a bought in engine into your design, no matter how exotic is still bodywork covering another cars engine. For drivers like me the engine is at least as important as the bodywork, possibly more so.
Lotus is perhaps the only other manufacturer who was prepared to do any more than tinker with someone elses engine.
If Lotus is now going to make a floor up engine then I would say thats a very brave move, but as far as I am concerned it similarly propells them up to do so.
Dagnut said:
It IS essential when your main competitors , Mercedes and Audi, are using FI and the customers care about MPG and emission's and all the jazz..can't compare BMW with Ferrari and Lotus.
I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
I don't think people who spend £125k on a sportscar give a crap about MPG or emissions to be honest. What's a bit more running cost over the course of year? Reminds me of ages ago on that Airport programme when the traffic warden shouted at a bloke in a Porsche for leaving his car in the drop off point, he asked how much the fine would be, think it was about £90, and he said "just ticket me then" and went inside to go about his business, couldn't be bothered moving it to the short-term car park.I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
So if you spend £1000 on fuel in a year and your car is 20% more efficient, you save £200 and maybe even less again on tax. Small change.
Junglehop said:
lovely looking thing, i dont think the white looks good though. its been seen in black and that just looks epic.
Huge shame they decided to Can the Elan as this was the looker of the bunch in my view. dropped as it was too close to the esprit apparently.
The engine solution is interesting, i concur with the above sentiments that a car of that price would not sell well with an off the shelf engine. it requires something homegrown and homebuilt. the V8 esprit engine was a great engine which experienced a few teething troubles but towards the end of its life was bang on. pushed out 350bhp in the V8's but was far more capable. Many have since been tuned. the gearbox was the limiting factor. incidentally i think im correct in thinking the budget for the V8 engine was more than that of the Elise!
i dont think the new Esprit wil carry the weight of lotus on its shoulders. it will merely be a showcase for the new Elise/Exige/Eterne et al a flagship if you will.
be interesting to find out how many they expect to shift.
I for one would be at the front of the que... i first need to win the lotto or find myself a securicor depot....
The 618/918 V8 released in 1996 was certainly done on a budget, c£3.5m if I recall correctly. That sum included tooling for the head / block castings, as well as machining fixtures etc.Huge shame they decided to Can the Elan as this was the looker of the bunch in my view. dropped as it was too close to the esprit apparently.
The engine solution is interesting, i concur with the above sentiments that a car of that price would not sell well with an off the shelf engine. it requires something homegrown and homebuilt. the V8 esprit engine was a great engine which experienced a few teething troubles but towards the end of its life was bang on. pushed out 350bhp in the V8's but was far more capable. Many have since been tuned. the gearbox was the limiting factor. incidentally i think im correct in thinking the budget for the V8 engine was more than that of the Elise!
i dont think the new Esprit wil carry the weight of lotus on its shoulders. it will merely be a showcase for the new Elise/Exige/Eterne et al a flagship if you will.
be interesting to find out how many they expect to shift.
I for one would be at the front of the que... i first need to win the lotto or find myself a securicor depot....
We used an Audi V8 as a mule to allow accelerated development of the ECU, so that when prototype engines were ready we had a fully functioning ECU to run them with.
It was designed by six people as an "after hours" project, i.e. we worked on profit making projects during normal working hours, and the V8 for an hour before / after the normal working day.
We also looked at minimising the use of too many fasteners, limiting oursleves to three length sizes for M6, M8 & M10 bolts / screws.
Dagnut said:
Mr Whippy said:
In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.
Dave
It IS essential when your main competitors , Mercedes and Audi, are using FI and the customers care about MPG and emission's and all the jazz..can't compare BMW with Ferrari and Lotus.Dave
I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
Does the 6.2 Merc for example, get much worse MPG than the the equivalent turbo car that it competes against?
CO2 ratings gained via DSG gearboxes running a flawed test system is valid wrt tax, but they are all over the top bracket anyway, and mpg in practice is often not quite what it is said to be the higher the claimed value is
Not trying to be confrontational, just I DO think that turbo is an easy way to an equally viable solution for the customer. Cheaper etc. I just like the way that Lotus are not taking the cheap route and want to make something that bit better because they feel it is important to
It's interesting how AMG Merc and Audi have had turbo/FI engines for years before BMW did, yet BMW didn't feel forced to follow that strategy at the time to compete. They went the extra mile. They don't seem to want to now. Lotus do. That should be praised
Dave
zebedee said:
Dagnut said:
It IS essential when your main competitors , Mercedes and Audi, are using FI and the customers care about MPG and emission's and all the jazz..can't compare BMW with Ferrari and Lotus.
I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
I don't think people who spend £125k on a sportscar give a crap about MPG or emissions to be honest. What's a bit more running cost over the course of year? Reminds me of ages ago on that Airport programme when the traffic warden shouted at a bloke in a Porsche for leaving his car in the drop off point, he asked how much the fine would be, think it was about £90, and he said "just ticket me then" and went inside to go about his business, couldn't be bothered moving it to the short-term car park.I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
So if you spend £1000 on fuel in a year and your car is 20% more efficient, you save £200 and maybe even less again on tax. Small change.
Mr Whippy said:
Dagnut said:
Mr Whippy said:
In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.
Dave
It IS essential when your main competitors , Mercedes and Audi, are using FI and the customers care about MPG and emission's and all the jazz..can't compare BMW with Ferrari and Lotus.Dave
I'm not saying I agree with their motives but business is business.
Does the 6.2 Merc for example, get much worse MPG than the the equivalent turbo car that it competes against?
CO2 ratings gained via DSG gearboxes running a flawed test system is valid wrt tax, but they are all over the top bracket anyway, and mpg in practice is often not quite what it is said to be the higher the claimed value is
Not trying to be confrontational, just I DO think that turbo is an easy way to an equally viable solution for the customer. Cheaper etc. I just like the way that Lotus are not taking the cheap route and want to make something that bit better because they feel it is important to
It's interesting how AMG Merc and Audi have had turbo/FI engines for years before BMW did, yet BMW didn't feel forced to follow that strategy at the time to compete. They went the extra mile. They don't seem to want to now. Lotus do. That should be praised
Dave
Dagnut said:
Could argue the definition of "proper sportscar" there with you...2 of the examples you chose there have 4wd and the other is a brand?..as a drivers car the Evora can more than hold it's own, just go and read a couple of reviews.
most people who buy these cars don't track them, and aren't 'drivers-car drivers'. my point was purely from a profit making perspective. Most people with the money would opt for the cars i listed over a new evora, which is why i think the evora was a dumb sell, but the new esprit seems the opposite.Yeah I know Dagnut, I agree. It's sad really, that even BMW are worrying now about mpg and those customers and stupid CO2 ratings, when in practice in these top-end sports saloons/supercars, the mpg difference on a 500bhp car between FI and NA is gonna be fairly negligible in itself, but against all the other costs even smaller.
To customers they probably 'feel' better off, but in practice it's probably a few percent of total ownership costs.
Crap times we live in. Lets hope we realise CO2 is good for the atmosphere, and burning oil is important, AND, we find lots more oil to reduce the price
Dave
To customers they probably 'feel' better off, but in practice it's probably a few percent of total ownership costs.
Crap times we live in. Lets hope we realise CO2 is good for the atmosphere, and burning oil is important, AND, we find lots more oil to reduce the price
Dave
wobert said:
That last statement is a bit of an understatement to say the least.......
Lotus Engineering has input into 90% of the gasoline engines sold into Europe, a bit removed from the "drafting in to give advice to Vauxhall" comment
Back in the ealry to mid 90's when I worked there on base engine design, GM (Opel to be precise) accounted for c60% of LE's turnover - since then they have worked with numerous main-stream european manufacturers, so I would presume the above 90% isn't too far wide of the mark.
I also had the honour of working on the design of the original V8 back in 93-94!
Can you please enlighten me on Lotus' experience in designing a really high performance, high revving engine? Or do I miss something? Has Lotus Engineering worked on F1 engines, designed Ferrari or Lamborghini engines?Lotus Engineering has input into 90% of the gasoline engines sold into Europe, a bit removed from the "drafting in to give advice to Vauxhall" comment
Back in the ealry to mid 90's when I worked there on base engine design, GM (Opel to be precise) accounted for c60% of LE's turnover - since then they have worked with numerous main-stream european manufacturers, so I would presume the above 90% isn't too far wide of the mark.
I also had the honour of working on the design of the original V8 back in 93-94!
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