RE: The end of M
Discussion
g3org3y said:
^This is an important point imo and shows the direction M are heading.
Imagine a Z4 with the E92 M3's V8 lump upfront (or even a variant of the turbo M135i sort). Tasty I'm sure. And yet, it doesn't exist yet the scandalously vulgar X5M/X6M get the seal of approval.
FFS, when will people realise that M have ALWAYS been about marketing/profits. BMW are a company, their primary focus is to make money. they can't make cars for people who:Imagine a Z4 with the E92 M3's V8 lump upfront (or even a variant of the turbo M135i sort). Tasty I'm sure. And yet, it doesn't exist yet the scandalously vulgar X5M/X6M get the seal of approval.
A) can't afford the car
or B) are only a tiny minority of those who would buy the car
for the record, they made the right decision on the X5M/X6M....they've already sold more of them than they did Z4M's so clearly BMW marketing department know the market better than you. funny that.
for the record, i'd also MUCH rather a Z4 with the M3 V8, but i'd also like no Porsche Cayennes etc etc but they're profitable so they are right for making them.
DJRC said:
So if this results in the death of "M3 man" and 90% of "enthusiasts" leaving the BMW fold, does that mean that those of us who were brought up on M meaning Dieter Quester, E9 CSLs and turbo charged nutter cars can reclaim the brand whilst you all f
k off elsewhere?
Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
E30Ms going for £85k. Oh wait..k off elsewhere?Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
This is more the "Death of the M Myth" than anything else. The opinion that M cars were these special stripped out cars just isn't true - yes they were more stripped out than today, but thats because the cars they were based on were too.
Thats the point though, M is the motorsport arm of BMW who happen to turn out some pretty tasty tuned versions of the road cars for a bit of profit and marketing. But as they're based on the standard cars thats what you get. They've normally had the luxuries of the standard cars - note lots of E46 M3s with TVs in them - but we're not saying that was some awful overweight abomination.
The E30 3 series was pretty much a lone car in the history of M cars - different roofline etc, more of a homologation special - the rest are exactly what we get today - better engine, better chassis, some different leather and stitching a few more exhaust pipes than strictly necessary - and Bob's your Uncle another M car.
X5M's? Why not, it's not like a car the size of a 5 series is the best place to start for a sports car and the world is a better place for an X5 with that engine. It just is.
Turbo engines? Yes, I would prefer an NA engine, but it's not the end of the world, if it means they can get the power, potentially have lighter engines (as they're smaller) which are easier to package and dupe Big Brother into thinking they're clean - then lets not worry too much. Better than nothing.
Recently we've had rave reviews for the 1M Coupe, the E9X M3 has consistently been judged the best in it's class and the new M5 has been very well received - it's just got much much stronger competition than ever before.
Coming next? Exciting cars, simple as that - an M3, M4, maybe an M2, maybe even an M1 supercar - what the hell are people complaining about??!?!
If you want a sports car, buy a sports car - Porsche do a pretty good line, as do Lotus. Don't pretend BMW ever did though, they just do a bloody good line of tuned everyday cars (into which they put more effort than any other manufacturer) which seem to annoy the very people who should be celebrating them.
Rant over. Ahem.
Thats the point though, M is the motorsport arm of BMW who happen to turn out some pretty tasty tuned versions of the road cars for a bit of profit and marketing. But as they're based on the standard cars thats what you get. They've normally had the luxuries of the standard cars - note lots of E46 M3s with TVs in them - but we're not saying that was some awful overweight abomination.
The E30 3 series was pretty much a lone car in the history of M cars - different roofline etc, more of a homologation special - the rest are exactly what we get today - better engine, better chassis, some different leather and stitching a few more exhaust pipes than strictly necessary - and Bob's your Uncle another M car.
X5M's? Why not, it's not like a car the size of a 5 series is the best place to start for a sports car and the world is a better place for an X5 with that engine. It just is.
Turbo engines? Yes, I would prefer an NA engine, but it's not the end of the world, if it means they can get the power, potentially have lighter engines (as they're smaller) which are easier to package and dupe Big Brother into thinking they're clean - then lets not worry too much. Better than nothing.
Recently we've had rave reviews for the 1M Coupe, the E9X M3 has consistently been judged the best in it's class and the new M5 has been very well received - it's just got much much stronger competition than ever before.
Coming next? Exciting cars, simple as that - an M3, M4, maybe an M2, maybe even an M1 supercar - what the hell are people complaining about??!?!
If you want a sports car, buy a sports car - Porsche do a pretty good line, as do Lotus. Don't pretend BMW ever did though, they just do a bloody good line of tuned everyday cars (into which they put more effort than any other manufacturer) which seem to annoy the very people who should be celebrating them.
Rant over. Ahem.
csmith319 said:
This is more the "Death of the M Myth" than anything else. The opinion that M cars were these special stripped out cars just isn't true - yes they were more stripped out than today, but thats because the cars they were based on were too.
Thats the point though, M is the motorsport arm of BMW who happen to turn out some pretty tasty tuned versions of the road cars for a bit of profit and marketing. But as they're based on the standard cars thats what you get. They've normally had the luxuries of the standard cars - note lots of E46 M3s with TVs in them - but we're not saying that was some awful overweight abomination.
The E30 3 series was pretty much a lone car in the history of M cars - different roofline etc, more of a homologation special - the rest are exactly what we get today - better engine, better chassis, some different leather and stitching a few more exhaust pipes than strictly necessary - and Bob's your Uncle another M car.
X5M's? Why not, it's not like a car the size of a 5 series is the best place to start for a sports car and the world is a better place for an X5 with that engine. It just is.
Turbo engines? Yes, I would prefer an NA engine, but it's not the end of the world, if it means they can get the power, potentially have lighter engines (as they're smaller) which are easier to package and dupe Big Brother into thinking they're clean - then lets not worry too much. Better than nothing.
Recently we've had rave reviews for the 1M Coupe, the E9X M3 has consistently been judged the best in it's class and the new M5 has been very well received - it's just got much much stronger competition than ever before.
Coming next? Exciting cars, simple as that - an M3, M4, maybe an M2, maybe even an M1 supercar - what the hell are people complaining about??!?!
If you want a sports car, buy a sports car - Porsche do a pretty good line, as do Lotus. Don't pretend BMW ever did though, they just do a bloody good line of tuned everyday cars (into which they put more effort than any other manufacturer) which seem to annoy the very people who should be celebrating them.
Rant over. Ahem.
One of the best posts I've read on ph in a long time. Thats the point though, M is the motorsport arm of BMW who happen to turn out some pretty tasty tuned versions of the road cars for a bit of profit and marketing. But as they're based on the standard cars thats what you get. They've normally had the luxuries of the standard cars - note lots of E46 M3s with TVs in them - but we're not saying that was some awful overweight abomination.
The E30 3 series was pretty much a lone car in the history of M cars - different roofline etc, more of a homologation special - the rest are exactly what we get today - better engine, better chassis, some different leather and stitching a few more exhaust pipes than strictly necessary - and Bob's your Uncle another M car.
X5M's? Why not, it's not like a car the size of a 5 series is the best place to start for a sports car and the world is a better place for an X5 with that engine. It just is.
Turbo engines? Yes, I would prefer an NA engine, but it's not the end of the world, if it means they can get the power, potentially have lighter engines (as they're smaller) which are easier to package and dupe Big Brother into thinking they're clean - then lets not worry too much. Better than nothing.
Recently we've had rave reviews for the 1M Coupe, the E9X M3 has consistently been judged the best in it's class and the new M5 has been very well received - it's just got much much stronger competition than ever before.
Coming next? Exciting cars, simple as that - an M3, M4, maybe an M2, maybe even an M1 supercar - what the hell are people complaining about??!?!
If you want a sports car, buy a sports car - Porsche do a pretty good line, as do Lotus. Don't pretend BMW ever did though, they just do a bloody good line of tuned everyday cars (into which they put more effort than any other manufacturer) which seem to annoy the very people who should be celebrating them.
Rant over. Ahem.
One minute it's thoughtless regurgitation of manufacturers press releases, the next it's an unnecessarily aggressive article like this - what gives?
You make it sound like BMW have some kind of obligation to build low number, low margin focused sports metal just for your news pieces and individual driving pleasure - don't you get that for 99% of people and M5 or M135i would have them white knuckling all the way to the nearest drawer of fresh underwear?
You make it sound like BMW have some kind of obligation to build low number, low margin focused sports metal just for your news pieces and individual driving pleasure - don't you get that for 99% of people and M5 or M135i would have them white knuckling all the way to the nearest drawer of fresh underwear?
E38Ross said:
FFS, when will people realise that M have ALWAYS been about marketing/profits. BMW are a company, their primary focus is to make money.
This is not entirely true. Although M cars have always been about the most advanced technology available BMW used to be run mainly by engineers who were car enthusiasts; this was even more true in the case of the Motorsport offshoot company - who's initial remit was to go racing - ok for marketing reasons, but the guys loved it. The early formula two four cylinder engine was based on the M10 because it was a perfectly good block on which to base a robust and pragmatically engineered racing engine. So good in fact that it begat not only the S14 but also, and directly, the F1 turbo engine that won the world championship in '83 and was developed to have more qualifying power than they could measure by '86. By combing the F2 cylinder head and M30 block BMW's racing 6 slowly morphed into the M88 / S38 that powered M1 to E34. Sure the M5 was not about being a road racer, but the engineers' love of racing shone through the engine itself. All these engines were developed by smaller teams on smaller budgets so the likes of Rosche oversaw racing (eg BMW's class of field F1 V10) as well as road car engines into the nineties.Put it another way, how many road car engines have throttle bodies? How many of those engines are found in four seat saloons and coupes? Throttle bodies give my 3.8 a level of control that makes me trust it more than anything else, and make traction control unnecessary.
Now the engineers have less influence because the market knows best.
Purely speculative, but I can't help wonder whether the S1000RR motorcycle engine @ almost 200 BHP/litre came from engineers either involved in F1 or NA road cars wanting to carry on strutting their stuff. It's in a league of one.
Something about old school M being about to go for or rather already going for silly money or thereabouts.DodoRacing said:
Implying aside, have they actually said they will stop the M3?
Even then, apart from a badge change, as its' been said above, they would effectively stop the 4 door M3 as the 4 series is nothing but a 3 series coupe.
I'm more frustrated about the lack of a new Z4M in the presence of X5M and X6M?
Good point.Even then, apart from a badge change, as its' been said above, they would effectively stop the 4 door M3 as the 4 series is nothing but a 3 series coupe.
I'm more frustrated about the lack of a new Z4M in the presence of X5M and X6M?
And there is a new Z4M - its called TTRS.
jonnydm said:
Really?
Point is there are so many choices out there why as consumers do so many feel this brand loyalty? Its like some people are supporting a football team. BMW = Man utd, Audi Liverpool etc.TT and Z4 are very similar, save obvious rear wheel drive vs 4wd etc. If BMW don't make a powerful small coupe / roadster, go Marc or Audi. Or 370Z.
When its time to trade my M3, if the new M3 / 4 is crap, what has Audi, porsche, merc got?
We are so spoilt for choice these days.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Correct - the only ///M engines which are truly unique are the V10 and V8 from the E9x M3. Every single other engine that ///M has ever produced has been a derivative of a cooking model starting off with the M88 - based on M30, S14 based on M10/M88 architecture, S38 based on M88/M30, S50 based on the M50, S54 based on the S50/M50 architecture, S62 based on the M60/M62 architecture - the new V8 Bi-turbos are not really ///M engines for me, thus I don't even know their model numbers...Chemical Ali said:
jonnydm said:
Really?
Point is there are so many choices out there why as consumers do so many feel this brand loyalty? Its like some people are supporting a football team. BMW = Man utd, Audi Liverpool etc.TT and Z4 are very similar, save obvious rear wheel drive vs 4wd etc. If BMW don't make a powerful small coupe / roadster, go Marc or Audi. Or 370Z.
When its time to trade my M3, if the new M3 / 4 is crap, what has Audi, porsche, merc got?
We are so spoilt for choice these days.
For a car person - turbo vs. NA as well as 4wd vs. RWD would be big things. Perhaps it has replaced it in the market though.
With the new M Performance line, you think they could reinstate the atmo 3.0 six for both 1 and 3 series as a special order or at the very least a crate engine.
To build your brand on a particular type of engine and not even offer a single N/A model is a disservice to thousands of people who fell in love with those wonderful engines. Leave the diesel and turbo fodder for those who want it, but don't ignore those who actively avoid those cars.
To build your brand on a particular type of engine and not even offer a single N/A model is a disservice to thousands of people who fell in love with those wonderful engines. Leave the diesel and turbo fodder for those who want it, but don't ignore those who actively avoid those cars.
Maybe they could follow Porsche's lead:
N/A entry models a cut above the cooking range through lighter weight but lucrative options packages for those who want it.
Turbocharged models such as the current M5 and M6, a lot of performance, but wrapped in a luxury package.
More focused GT3-esque models based on the smaller chassis, with CSL variants being BMW's 'Rennsport'.
A GT2 style money maker based on the M6, for those who always want more.
With that focus, M could be its own brand and the cars could be more distinct from their origins than ever. BMW have spun off more couture shapes from the 5 and 6, with the 3 and 4 to follow, so it can't be a terrible idea for them. If anyone could undercut Porsche and take them on at their own game whilst making a success of it, I'd wager it would be BMW.
This strategy would give more legitimacy to the M-Sport and M-Performance cars in the line up, as they wouldn't be so close to steeping on each other's toes. The former gains styling inspired by the M-cars as always and the latter gets the looks and the increase in power, but if you want to go even further, there's four tiers of choice above it.
N/A entry models a cut above the cooking range through lighter weight but lucrative options packages for those who want it.
Turbocharged models such as the current M5 and M6, a lot of performance, but wrapped in a luxury package.
More focused GT3-esque models based on the smaller chassis, with CSL variants being BMW's 'Rennsport'.
A GT2 style money maker based on the M6, for those who always want more.
With that focus, M could be its own brand and the cars could be more distinct from their origins than ever. BMW have spun off more couture shapes from the 5 and 6, with the 3 and 4 to follow, so it can't be a terrible idea for them. If anyone could undercut Porsche and take them on at their own game whilst making a success of it, I'd wager it would be BMW.
This strategy would give more legitimacy to the M-Sport and M-Performance cars in the line up, as they wouldn't be so close to steeping on each other's toes. The former gains styling inspired by the M-cars as always and the latter gets the looks and the increase in power, but if you want to go even further, there's four tiers of choice above it.
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