RE: VW confirms XL1 production
Discussion
JonnyVTEC said:
So it appears that aluminium would be 20% heavier but 40 times cheaper to produce the body....
Sorry why did they go with carbon fibre? Forgot the point about recylability for now, you could even start ally with reclaimed ally. A real 'tin can' of a car then!
It's a technology experiment, just the same as the first aluminium cars were. Audi did the A8 spaceframe... when? 1993?Sorry why did they go with carbon fibre? Forgot the point about recylability for now, you could even start ally with reclaimed ally. A real 'tin can' of a car then!
This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
Ok some quick calcs using an online calculator
Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
Edited by cptsideways on Friday 22 February 10:46
CraigyMc said:
It's a technology experiment, just the same as the first aluminium cars were. Audi did the A8 spaceframe... when? 1993?
This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
I think this is a fair point. If they put a similar drivetrain into a conventional small car like an Up and it only does 50% of the mpg, it will still be a supremely efficient car. This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
cptsideways said:
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
I am not suprised. I once read a cyclist spends 90% of their energy just pushing air out of the way, before you even get to friction and all the other aspects. With that in mind I thought this was the most intelligent car design I have seen. So of course it was never made...
cptsideways said:
Ok some quick calcs using an online calculator
Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
I'm not sure your average number is all that average.Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
Examples:
BMW E90 320d EfficientDynamics has a frontal area of 2.17m^2, and a Cd factor of 0.27. CdA = 0.586
BMW F30 320d EfficientDynamics has a frontal area of 2.20m^2, and a Cd factor of 0.26. CdA = 0.572
Even a Lotus Elise CR has a frontal area of 1.6m^2. With a Cd factor of 0.41 or so, the CdA on it would be 0.656, draggier than the saloon cars mentioned above.
This agrees with published specs to some degree.
The Elise R (189ps) manages 138mph, while the aerodynamically cleaner 320d cars manage 142/143mph respectively - on only 163ps.
The Elise SC (220ps) manages 145mph, while a 320d (with only 184ps) manages 146mph.
These are just examples showing that the shape has quite a big influence on the drag. It's not just frontal area.
C
Edited for speeling.
Edited by CraigyMc on Friday 22 February 11:34
CraigyMc said:
cptsideways said:
Ok some quick calcs using an online calculator
Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
I'm not sure your average number is all that average.Typical average saloon car with a good Cd figure of 0.26 but a frontal area of 1m squared which is about the average modern car, with a modern eco diesel engine & eco features.
Identical calcs for engine/losses etc
At 60 mph the 1m frontal area car would do 2.92 l/100km 96.74 mpg
At 60 mph the.5m frontal area car would do 1.13 l/100km 249.98 mpg
Frontal area makes the biggest difference to eco'ness by a far greater margin than anything else imho
Examples:
BMW E90 320d EfficientDynamics has a frontal area of 2.17m^2, and a Cd factor of 0.27. CdA = 0.586
BMW F30 320d EfficientDynamics has a frontal area of 2.20m^2, and a Cd factor of 0.26. CdA = 0.572
Even a Lotus Elise CR has a frontal area of 1.6m^2. With a Cd factor of 0.41 or so, the CdA on it would be 0.656, draggier than the saloon cars mentioned above.
C
Edited by CraigyMc on Friday 22 February 11:27
CraigyMc said:
It's a technology experiment, just the same as the first aluminium cars were. Audi did the A8 spaceframe... when? 1993?
This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
Its okay, got a Gen1 Insight This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
Fair enough point, need to keep up with the BMW i CRFRP stuff afterall!
JonnyVTEC said:
CraigyMc said:
It's a technology experiment, just the same as the first aluminium cars were. Audi did the A8 spaceframe... when? 1993?
This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
Its okay, got a Gen1 Insight This is another technological toe in the water exercise along those lines.
If you want a mass-production car, buy the version of the Up! they are shoving the drivetrain into.
C
Fair enough point, need to keep up with the BMW i CRFRP stuff afterall!
OT: Nice car, the insight.
C
JonnyVTEC said:
CraigyMc said:
It wasn't an idle point actually - they are stuffing the 2-cylinder 800cc diesel into the up!. Not sure about the electrical gubbins, but I'd be surprised if they didn't go in too.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/scoop/vw-hybrid-use-xl1-techsideways man said:
This car with just a 3 pot turbo diesel- no hybrid nonsense or electrical gimmicks in order to keep weight to a minimum.
It is the future of mass motoring. Unfortunately.
With the price of fuel increasing every month, we NEED a vehicle that does circa 300 mpg.
This car already has a 2-pot diesel. Adding a 3rd cylinder would give you more power and less economy.It is the future of mass motoring. Unfortunately.
With the price of fuel increasing every month, we NEED a vehicle that does circa 300 mpg.
V
te looking car, 
But do you not think, if VW could make these for a reasonably affordable price, and be the first to market with such a model, they'd sell them by the absolutely BOAT load?
Ive said:
VW won't sell them.
The will build a total of 50 cars that will be leasing only to "selected customers".
this way they avoid all trouble about range missing, technical issues, higher real world consumption etc.
Guess is that all 50 will be leased to VAG management and friends.
VAG will lose a lot of money with each car. As said, the 50 cars are hand build by the prototype folks of VW.
After a 3 years trial period with the leasing fleet they will offer a production version with half the features for stupid money in order to claim/prove they offer such a car, but nobody actually buys it. Hard arguments to show the EU that CO2 goals are rubbish as foks don't accept the vehicles required to do that etc.
all clever marketing.
The will build a total of 50 cars that will be leasing only to "selected customers".
this way they avoid all trouble about range missing, technical issues, higher real world consumption etc.
Guess is that all 50 will be leased to VAG management and friends.
VAG will lose a lot of money with each car. As said, the 50 cars are hand build by the prototype folks of VW.
After a 3 years trial period with the leasing fleet they will offer a production version with half the features for stupid money in order to claim/prove they offer such a car, but nobody actually buys it. Hard arguments to show the EU that CO2 goals are rubbish as foks don't accept the vehicles required to do that etc.
all clever marketing.
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