RE: Aston and AMG: it's official!

[JMC1]

All this Aston Can not afford is doing my brains in.

How much did it cost McLaren to put a new car, engine and factory together.

Aston already have this except are going to need new engines and cash to develop the car platform.

Many new engines for small scale production and race cars are produced each year without the need for the cost to run into £100's of millions.

I just cant see how McLaren can do it all from scratch and Aston can not even develop an engine. Or is that the overheads cost is to great only I wouldn't want to see poor old Dave Richards go without a new helicopter after all.

I love Aston but after owning one I am not sure why as it has to be the worst built car I have ever owned and I received the worst ever follow up rectification works at Aston Works Service (I can not print what I think of Mr K Riding-Felce and my Fathers opinion of him from the mid 1970's is even worse) but I think they should have their own engine.

I can't help but think that we are having the wool pulled over our eyes in that Aston is so expensive and poorly run that the spare cash is swallowed by all the bad things including the fortune it must cost them each year in warranty issues and big overheads leaving no spare for actually trying to build a well made decent car. Also perhaps they are no longer up to building their own engine hence the need for AMG.

[NGK210]

Megaflow said:

IanJ9375 said:

JMC1 said:

So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.

Ricardo developed from the Nissan race engine - not from scratch

I knew it was developed from something, but could not recall what.

IIRC Nissan contracted Ricardo to build a race engine, during development Nissan closed down the project, paid for the R&D spent to date, and Ricardo got the IP in the deal, which they subsequent ally sold to McLaren.

Didn't know that, interesting, ta

[MikeGalos]

smilo996 said:

Aston relegated to being a coach builder.

Precisely.

What, actually, is there left that Aston actually create.
The chassis? Lotus Engineering.
The engine? Now AMG.
The body and interior? Yes. But virtually identical in all models for a decade.

With Aston relegated to being a coach builder, they're the least interesting ones in the world with Aston Design Chief being the second least busy job in the auto industry. The top one, of course, being Porsche Design Chief.

Personally, I'll miss the Aston V12 sound which, to me, is one of the great, primal auditory experiences out there.

But, apparently gone is the century old tradition of Aston Martin being a place where profit came below expertise and owners happily lost money year after year to produce something to be seen as their legacy. Another coffin nail goes into what tiny bit is left of the post-Thatcher British auto industry and the world gets a little bit less interesting.

Edited by MikeGalos on Thursday 25th July 17:23

[guegeon pintle]

This may be good for motoring world and the environment but this is one more step in "corporate multinationalism". Aston will now be nothing more than a coach builder. There are no "real British" cars anymore.

This is the end of an era.

It would have been better a technology partnership say with Porsche Design, Ferrari, Fiat/Alfa Romeo/Abarth/Marelli to design all new Aston power plants rather than Mercedes AMG engines with Aston valve covers.

[DonkeyApple]

JMC1 said:

All this Aston Can not afford is doing my brains in.

How much did it cost McLaren to put a new car, engine and factory together.

Aston already have this except are going to need new engines and cash to develop the car platform.

Many new engines for small scale production and race cars are produced each year without the need for the cost to run into £100's of millions.

I just cant see how McLaren can do it all from scratch and Aston can not even develop an engine. Or is that the overheads cost is to great only I wouldn't want to see poor old Dave Richards go without a new helicopter after all.

I love Aston but after owning one I am not sure why as it has to be the worst built car I have ever owned and I received the worst ever follow up rectification works at Aston Works Service (I can not print what I think of Mr K Riding-Felce and my Fathers opinion of him from the mid 1970's is even worse) but I think they should have their own engine.

I can't help but think that we are having the wool pulled over our eyes in that Aston is so expensive and poorly run that the spare cash is swallowed by all the bad things including the fortune it must cost them each year in warranty issues and big overheads leaving no spare for actually trying to build a well made decent car. Also perhaps they are no longer up to building their own engine hence the need for AMG.

Equity v Debt financing

Astons issues aren't their inability to design or build but the fact that they are mortgaged up to the hilt and have a very money hungry Board. So, whereas Maclaren's revenue can be re-invested into the business, Aston's appears to all go on debt financing, shareholder appeasement and board remuneration.

[mikey k]

NGK210 said:

mikey k said:

GroundEffect said:

Is everyone forgetting Astons current engines are Ford-made? And the V8 is a Jaguar design?

yes we are because neither is true

Isn't the V12 built and supplied by Ford Europe's engine plant in Germany?

Both the V8 & the V12 are built in a plant leased from Ford, by AM employees to an AM design. The lease is the only link to Ford now.

[SpeckledJim]

JMC1 said:

All this Aston Can not afford is doing my brains in.

How much did it cost McLaren to put a new car, engine and factory together.

Aston already have this except are going to need new engines and cash to develop the car platform.

Many new engines for small scale production and race cars are produced each year without the need for the cost to run into £100's of millions.

I just cant see how McLaren can do it all from scratch and Aston can not even develop an engine. Or is that the overheads cost is to great only I wouldn't want to see poor old Dave Richards go without a new helicopter after all.

I love Aston but after owning one I am not sure why as it has to be the worst built car I have ever owned and I received the worst ever follow up rectification works at Aston Works Service (I can not print what I think of Mr K Riding-Felce and my Fathers opinion of him from the mid 1970's is even worse) but I think they should have their own engine.

I can't help but think that we are having the wool pulled over our eyes in that Aston is so expensive and poorly run that the spare cash is swallowed by all the bad things including the fortune it must cost them each year in warranty issues and big overheads leaving no spare for actually trying to build a well made decent car. Also perhaps they are no longer up to building their own engine hence the need for AMG.

Because McLaren are very well-funded and ambitious and Aston are, true to the very grandest of Aston traditions, potless.

[anonymous-user]

MikeGalos said:

Precisely.

What, actually, is there left that Aston actually create.
The chassis? Lotus Engineering.
The engine? Now AMG.
The body and interior? Yes. But virtually identical in all models for a decade.

With Aston relegated to being a coach builder, they're the least interesting ones in the world with Aston Design Chief being the second least busy job in the auto industry. The top one, of course, being Porsche Design Chief.

Edited by MikeGalos on Thursday 25th July 17:23

I love how Porsche get mentioned in an article that is not remotely related to them!
When was the last time the DB9 or V8 vantage actually recieved new body panels?
Same old chestnut - Porsche designs may be similar but their not the SAME and they must be doing something right if they don't have to rely upon other companies for chassis and power plants eh?

[mikey k]

SpeckledJim said:

JMC1 said:

All this Aston Can not afford is doing my brains in.

How much did it cost McLaren to put a new car, engine and factory together.

Aston already have this except are going to need new engines and cash to develop the car platform.

Many new engines for small scale production and race cars are produced each year without the need for the cost to run into £100's of millions.

I just cant see how McLaren can do it all from scratch and Aston can not even develop an engine. Or is that the overheads cost is to great only I wouldn't want to see poor old Dave Richards go without a new helicopter after all.

I love Aston but after owning one I am not sure why as it has to be the worst built car I have ever owned and I received the worst ever follow up rectification works at Aston Works Service (I can not print what I think of Mr K Riding-Felce and my Fathers opinion of him from the mid 1970's is even worse) but I think they should have their own engine.

I can't help but think that we are having the wool pulled over our eyes in that Aston is so expensive and poorly run that the spare cash is swallowed by all the bad things including the fortune it must cost them each year in warranty issues and big overheads leaving no spare for actually trying to build a well made decent car. Also perhaps they are no longer up to building their own engine hence the need for AMG.

Because McLaren are very well-funded and ambitious and Aston are, true to the very grandest of Aston traditions, potless.

And McLaren bought the work Ricardo did for Nissan

[Al 450]

mikey k said:

NGK210 said:

mikey k said:

GroundEffect said:

Is everyone forgetting Astons current engines are Ford-made? And the V8 is a Jaguar design?

yes we are because neither is true

Isn't the V12 built and supplied by Ford Europe's engine plant in Germany?

Both the V8 & the V12 are built in a plant leased from Ford, by AM employees to an AM design. The lease is the only link to Ford now.

The V8 engine is loosely based on the Jag AJ-V8 block but to say it's the same engine is untrue. It's a dry sump versus a wet sump, a different bore, stroke, and displacement, with different cylinder heads, different valves, springs, pistons, camshafts, different throttles, different manifolds both inlet and exhaust, different injectors, sensors and a different engine management system. And it's hand assembled in an Aston facility by Aston employees.

[Abwalsh]

On one hand I think it's a shame that it has lost some character, but this will be a good move for Aston.

The AMG range of engines have the most character out of any one else to supply them and its good news on the performance front. I appreciate they are not all about speed but when they are getting annihilated on the track by the competition it begs the question why not buy a competitor.

What I hope for is the expansion of the Black Series to AM.

A Black Series Vanquish - epic.

[DonkeyApple]

Abwalsh said:

On one hand I think it's a shame that it has lost some character, but this will be a good move for Aston.

The AMG range of engines have the most character out of any one else to supply them and its good news on the performance front. I appreciate they are not all about speed but when they are getting annihilated on the track by the competition it begs the question why not buy a competitor.

What I hope for is the expansion of the Black Series to AM.

A Black Series Vanquish - epic.

Obsidian. 'Black' is a vulgar word.

I have to say that it's a shame Aston have pissed away so much money that they have to buy in but my God are those AMG engines magnificent. The next gen of Astons should sound like a Spitfire on a flypast.

[steviegunn]

Max_Torque said:

WokkaWokka said:

Now is the time to buy an Aston before you cant get one with an original engine!

One of these:




??


;-)

Can't do that, that car has that forced injection everybody hates.

[rs200evo]

WokkaWokka said:

Now is the time to buy an Aston before you cant get one with an original engine!

Yes, I'm sure when presented with a choice by the dealer when you are about to plonk down 100k, such as

'Would Sir/Madam like their Vantage with the
420BHP/343LB FT engine, 21MPG and 7 speed single clutch gearbox, or the
550BHP/531LB FT engine, 29 MPG and 7 speed MCT auto"

the original is going to be the best seller :/

The AMG engines will be night and day compared to what AM have now, it's a master stroke for AM....

[P4ROT]

Charlie Michael said:

Hmm, the 7.3 in a Vanquish

I just had a crisis!

[MikeGalos]

rs200evo said:

Yes, I'm sure when presented with a choice by the dealer when you are about to plonk down 100k, such as

'Would Sir/Madam like their Vantage with the
420BHP/343LB FT engine, 21MPG and 7 speed single clutch gearbox, or the
550BHP/531LB FT engine, 29 MPG and 7 speed MCT auto"

the original is going to be the best seller :/

If Sir/Madam really wanted to buy based on BHP and Ft/Lb and fuel mileage they'd buy a C7 Corvette tweaked by a tuner like Callaway or Sir/Madam would just buy their choice of AMG Mercedes and be done with it.

People do NOT buy an Aston Martin because it's the highest performance car (it isn't and hasn't been close in years) nor that it's state of the art (it isn't and hasn't been close in years) or because it offers great performance value (it never has). They buy it because it's PERCIEVED (rightly or wrongly) as THE elegant high performance car that reflects a certain old world concern for craftsmanship and because it's James Bond's car.

The reality may be that the days of craftsmen with little hammers beating panels over wooden templates and tailors holding needles in their teeth while they stitch hides together are long gone but that perception has remained and has been the aura surrounding the brand. This move kills most of what's left of it and now moves Aston Martin to directly competing on features, performance and price with Ferrari and Maserati and Porsche and Jaguar and Lamborghini and AMG Mercedes and BMW M-Series and Cadillac V-Series.

And a battle of price/specs/reliability should not be a happy thought for Aston Martin since that's a battle they can't realistically even hope to win.

Edited by MikeGalos on Thursday 25th July 20:14

[chelme]

This smacks of lazyness on behalf of Aston Martin.

For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. Yes, yes, they may have blocks from Jaguar Ford, but everyone knows (or is under the impression) of the amount of imput they presently have to make the V8s and V12s the way they are.

Many here have failed to appreciate the amount of engineering that has gone into making sure the basic structures, all be it from Jaguar and Ford, have been significantly reworked on by AM to draw as much power as possible. AM no doubt used the engineering know how to pull nearly 470 bhp from the 4.7 V8 and 565bhp from the 5.9litre V12. Neither Ford nor Jaguar gave AM the engines in these tunes, so this effort helps mask the source and draws a great deal respect for AM's ability to produce powerful ad charismatic engines. It goes without saying that there is nothing wrong with the engines they have place.

Those seeking to sell their cars in the future would arguably see significant returns on the AMs that have home developed engines, but this is not a one way street. That a 250 SWB makes £8m (not even going to mention the 250GTO because that’s an extreme example) enhances Ferrari's current reputation and demand in the same way its current 4.5 V8 developed by Ferrari builds on it. The different markets feed one another. Heritage feeds modernity, but modernity will only build on this if the principles within its heritage are maintained. The 'average buyer' looking to spend £100k+ on a car will appreciate this, whether they come from the States, Europe, or Japan and these markets are far from dead. The Russians and the Chinese may not know either way, but that’s a presumption and even if true, they are but two parts of a global market.

Those that emphasize the 'pragmatism' and 'financial realities' fail to appreciate the long term consequences of what amounts to a cost cutting exercise. Yes in the near future, it may benefit Aston Martin to stick AMG engines. Long Term, when arguably considered compromised as simply a glorified coachbuilder, the situation could well be very different. Just look at De Tomaso and Monteverdi and others who used standard crate engines.

Some have thought of Pagani or McLaren F1 as a reason to challenge this view. Pagani was a start-up. It had no heritage. It had everything to gain and built its reputation on bespoke chassis and materials. In addition, the AMG unit built, as Mr Pagani emphasized himself, was specifically designed for the car, not some crate off the shelf unit. It’s the same with the McLaren F1. Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche. The McLaren F1 was never really a success to begin with and it is only now considered to be 'great' because A) it was the quickest car in the world with the highest top speed B) it had bespoke architecture, and C) it was highly successful on the circuit. Yes it had a BMW engine too, which most importantly was not made available for BMW itself.

The Pagani relies on its bespoke construction and the specially built engine too.

Aston is highly unlikely to offer any of these attributes.

Indeed it is because McLaren is in pursuit of a similar halo to Porsche and Ferrari, that it made the right decision to collaborate with Ricardo. Providing they are aggressive in their pursuit, they will themselves get there. Aston had everything to gain by going down this route with either Ricardo or Cosworth. Instead, it now risks being seen as a 'coachbuilder' with a fancy engine, except that it will be neither Bertone, nor Pininfarina.

AM should not make the mistake of abdicating entirely, their responsibility over powertrain engineering to another manufacturer, notwitstanding that it may be AMG, for they will lose what credibility they have as Aston Martin. This is what I fear for AM and what I have stated is subject to how they approach this 'collaboration'. If the engines are worked on together then it may not be such an issue. If they are the same engines as those found on an SLS, or worse SL, then AM will in my view be seen as compromised.

AMG Mercedes will only benefit from this collaboration; it will be considered the manufacturer providing the heart of the vehicle and their reputation for building engines for others will only enhance their standing.

[Mave]

MikeGalos said:

People do NOT buy an Aston Martin because it's the highest performance car nor that it's state of the art or because it offers great performance value. They buy it because it's PERCIEVED as THE elegant high performance car that reflects a certain old world concern for craftsmanship and because it's James Bond's car

Unfortunately I suspect that changed when AM became the footballer's brand of choice :-S

[The Vambo]

MikeGalos said:

Precisely.

What, actually, is there left that Aston actually create.
The chassis? Lotus Engineering.
The engine? Now AMG.
The body and interior? Yes. But virtually identical in all models for a decade.

This is how many many big name manufacturing companies run and run successfully. Go and rip the back off your TV or laptop, how many of the components do you think Panasonic/Sony/LG actually design and make? Sony don't even make the screens in any of their TVs.

[Mave]

chelme said:

Those that emphasize the 'pragmatism' and 'financial realities' fail to appreciate the long term consequences of what amounts to a cost cutting exercise. Yes in the near future, it may benefit Aston Martin to stick AMG engines. Long Term, when arguably considered compromised as simply a glorified coachbuilder, the situation could well be very different. Just look at De Tomaso and Monteverdi and others who used standard crate engines

The problem with evolution is that every step needs to be viable. There's no point trying to get to utopia if you die on the way :-(